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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:02 am 
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Recap after the Danville autox: I ran these tires on the E90 330i in PURE stock form, not even an alignment (i.e. it has pins you can tap out to get more negative camber), so it probably had normal toe and a few tenths of camber -- it showed. The car just punished the outer edges of the tires, and it wanted to push, push, push all the time but especially on track out where you had to be careful with throttle else you end up pushing wide.

The tires, I think, will be very nice to drive on a decently setup car as they were easy to read what's going on.

We're going to put the rear bar back to stock on the ZHP, so it can run in stock class again. Then we'll try these at the next event and just see how much rub we get during an autox -- it might not be enough to be a serious issue on course. A track event at VIR with them would be a no go, but autox might just work, so I'll have some valid input on the R1 after the next event (which might be this weekend at Danville again).

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:27 am 
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I just went ahead and ran these tires on the 330i ZHP yesterday at the Triad Club's Sanford event. They setup a wonderful course with nice flow and very few cone hits except in the diabolical slalom near the end of the course. It was a fun event with lots of THSCC members in attendance and driving very well.

I am VERY impressed with the R1s on this car. VERY. They absolutely transformed the handling balance -- shockingly transformed. It wants to rotate now on turn in, and in the high speed sections of the course, it was more neutral than at anytime I've ever driven the car. I can't speak for anyone else's setup and how the R1 will interact with it, but on the 330i they are awesome. I feel like a BFG marketing spokesperson now or something. :?

Detail:

We returned the zhp to stock class by removing the rear sway bar and reinstalling the stock bar.

I was shooting for hot pressures of 40psi front and 35psi rear. I read the detailed user's manual BFG put out on the tires, and I just settled on those target pressures as reasonable. I bled them down after the first three runs to maintain that target. I also sprayed them after each run after checking the hot pressures.

With that pressure stagger, the car was more balanced than anytime since we've been autocrossing it. It was really like night and day compared to the recent tires we've been running on the car. The most recent tires were Hoosier A6s, and with those tires on this stock class car, it felt horrible. The A6 required much higher slip angles (more steering wheel input) to generate a given level of grip, and the car had a massively stuck tail with the Hoosiers. I tried all sorts of pressure balances, and after talking to a Hoosier engineer, I ran 12psi lower in the rear to get the tail to rotate on turn-in. That worked ok, but the car was still simply not responding well (and of course the Hoosiers corded before I could get to the 20th run anyway, so it was hard to work on setup). The BFG R1 changed all of that.

They felt wonderful on turn-in with excellent feedback. Trail braking heavily on turn-in could be easily modulated near the limit. They make almost zero noise, just a squeak every now and then, but unlike the A6, you "know" what is going on down at that contact patch, and they inspire confidence in you taking them to their limits...enough so that you just want more, more, more from them. That communication they provide makes it easy to modulate them around their peak, and without any real noise, you just feel them very well through the steering wheel and butt. This was the first time that I have really enjoyed driving the 330i in an autocross.

Aside story: In a previous life with THSCC, I had a 1972 BMW Bavaria that was setup for autox and track driving circa 1978-1983 timeframe. In 1982 after the first BFG Comp T/A hit the market, the car had 14" wheels, and I was using Goodyear Eagle GT 205/70-14 tires. Since the BFGs took the market by storm at the time, I was interested in them, but they didn't make them in my size.

Shortly, they came out with the "Euro T/A" in many sizes, and I bought some 235/60-14s. Those tires RUINED the handling balance of the Bavaria. They took it from a neutral, balanced setup to a horrible understeering pig. I HATED those tires and ditched them as soon as possible.

That was my last experience with tires so dramatically altering a car's balance. It is most ironic that 25 years later BFG tires would perform an alternate transformation for me. Payback takes a 1/4 century I guess.

Conclusion:

I had tire rub on one side in the rear on the inside tire well area along with light rub on the fender lips that was no issue on an autox, so my earlier fears were slightly without merit. They are wider than "265", even when compressed onto 8 and 8.5 wheels, but the rub is minor and doesn't appear to be too big of an issue (yet, at least).

The BFG R1 is a serious tire. It is definitely a better tire than the Nitto NT-01 R-comp, and my guess is that on many cars it might perhaps be the best choice for autocross. It is supposedly "between" the Hoosier A6 and R6 in terms of performance, but on the 330i it is vastly better than the A6 in my "backyard-hack-sort-of-way" evaluation. It is going to be a much longer wearing tire than the A6, so from that standpoint it might be the way to go for club autox when you don't want to fork over a grand every time you turn around.

Perhaps the best indicator is that Jackie drove the best event she has ever driven on these tires. She won the ladies class and was less than 2 seconds back from my time -- by far the closest she's ever been to my driving. She PAX'd 17th overall. She loved the way the car was driving and really enjoyed driving on these tires. She is still on that vertical learning curve, but this was the biggest leap she has made so far on that path.

Chuck

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:19 pm 
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Well, I have to put in my 2 cents with my first experience on these tires, although clearly I haven't been alive as long as Mr. Branscomb has been scrutinizing tires...

I bought a staggered set for my new 16x7/8" wheels. The tires were 225/50 and 245/45.
FYI- physically, the 245s will go on a 7" wide wheel. You don't want to know under what unfortunate circumstances I learned this, and you probably wouldn't want to drive them, but they will fit.

Anyone who has seen my 944 on 215/60/15 yoko es100s in TIR class knows that it is a pretty loose car (Mike Whitney drove it once on those tires). That being said, the BFG R1s are my first race tire experience, so I don't have much to compare them to, but here are my impressions:

1: Great feedback. I've always liked the feedback I got from my 944, and with these tires, although there wasn't the acoustic feedback that street tires give, it was very easy to tell what the tires were doing on both ends of the car, even without a tach. Especially up front, it was obvious even to me (someone who had never driven on race tires ever) when the tire was being overdriven and was not providing good traction.

2. Stiff. Again, my only comparison is donut-shaped street tires, but they took a lot of bounce out of my ride and replaced it with sharp steering.

3. Forgiving. I don't know how to get performance out of race tires. I took a couple of baseline temp readings with my temp gun, set the tire pressures to 40psi cold all around, ran a couple of times, very slightly bleeding the rears to 41.5 psi and the fronts to 42psi. I sprayed them in between runs, but as you can see they did not build up much pressure and the pressure adjustment was based solely on the wear pattern of the sidewalls, which was, by the way, looking like I should be able to get a lot of life out of these tires.

4. I won my class the first time I ever drove on them.


Last edited by William Gravely on Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:35 pm 
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Chuck, it sounds like the new tires are working well for you and Jackie. I was working the course when Jackie was running and I must say she looked very good out there!

The amount of speed she was carrying into the diagonal slalom on the main runway was very impressive and the fact that she consistently got it whoa'd down to just the right speed before tossing the car through the transitions was spot on. I saw tons of people come flying in there and get way behind in the slalom or just plain take half the thing out. Stephen and the other guy working that section were very busy replacing those pesky cones.

The first time Jackie came barreling in there, my first thought was "Uh oh!" :lol: Instead, she got the car slowed up just enough and slithered through the slalom staying right on top of the cones. I was impressed-- great job!

Your comments about the tires got me thinking about the change in balance and how it relates to most cars I've driven and Sanford's surface in particular. I'm guessing that the BFG's don't have quite the outright grip that the A6's have and when you combine that with Sanford's slippery surface, you get the big balance swing you saw.

It's been my experience that anytime grip goes away (up to a point), a car tends to get looser. I'd be curious to hear your feedback after running those tires at a different site. I'm sure they will still be more balanced than the A6's were for your car but I'd almost be willing to bet that the balance will shift back towards understeer a hair. Unlike the self-destructing A6's, it will probably be much easier to get the balance back on a different surface with minor adjustments.

With the old Azenis, my car was always great at our sites with more grip but diabolically loose at Sanford. Since I've switched to the Bridgestones, I've found I'm pushing really badly everywhere else but it was fantastic at Sanford. The 'Stones have more ultimate grip than the Azenis and I still haven't managed to find the balance I'm looking for with them. This was my first event at Sanford on them and hopefully I can find some easy way of finding that balance elsewhere without resorting to more semi-drastic suspension changes.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your experiences with the new tires and I'll be looking forward to any other feedback you have from running them in the future.

Jim


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:04 pm 
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JamesFeinberg wrote:
The amount of speed she was carrying into the diagonal slalom on the main runway was very impressive and the fact that she consistently got it whoa'd down to just the right speed before tossing the car through the transitions was spot on. I saw tons of people come flying in there and get way behind in the slalom or just plain take half the thing out.


Jim,

Thanks for your comments about Jackie; I'm sure she will enjoy the feedback as she had an awesome day. I wish I could have done that part as well as her. I fell into that second group you mention on every run in one way or another. :oops:

I appreciate your observations about the surface grip as it makes a lot of sense. We did run the Hoosiers at Sanford this year...with dismal results. I really think a lot of the A6 issue on this car is the lack of enough front camber when fully loaded up in a turn as the A6s just got that diagonal egde they have between the tread face and sidewall eaten up in a hurry. It changes shape from rounded when new to a 45 degree angle it seems pretty quick on this car. I'm sure the A6 experience would be a lot different with a properly setup suspension or a stock one with more camber adjustment, etc.

I don't think I'll be autocrossing this car before the NCAC, so I won't have any further experience on these before then. Also, I'm not sure which car to bring to the NCAC -- the DS 330i or the ESP M5. I'm pretty sure Keith will easily sew up DS with the Crossfire. Maybe that means I need to buy a set of autox tires (something more sticky than NT-01s) for the M5 to run in ESP? Wait, are you running an ESP car at NCAC?

Chuck

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:14 pm 
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Chuck Branscomb wrote:
I don't think I'll be autocrossing this car before the NCAC, so I won't have any further experience on these before then. Also, I'm not sure which car to bring to the NCAC -- the DS 330i or the ESP M5. I'm pretty sure Keith will easily sew up DS with the Crossfire. Maybe that means I need to buy a set of autox tires (something more sticky than NT-01s) for the M5 to run in ESP? Wait, are you running an ESP car at NCAC?


Keith may be running for the "other" club. I believe he did last year but I may be mistaken.

I'll be in STS2 unless something drastic happens between now and then.

Of course, if you ever need a co-driver, I'm always available. DS or ESP, I'm not picky! :wink:

Jim


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:02 am 
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Keith may not have it so easy. If Bryan is around, I'll be in DS in the Crossfire as well, as sort of a 'Let's see if Aaron wants to go to Nats 2007' event. Bryan is a THSCC member as well. - AB

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:38 am 
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Aaron Buckley wrote:
Keith may not have it so easy. If Bryan is around, I'll be in DS in the Crossfire as well, as sort of a 'Let's see if Aaron wants to go to Nats 2007' event. Bryan is a THSCC member as well. - AB


I am hoping to not have it easy. :D Day one of the Commonwealth Games was rather anticlimatic as I was carrying a cone until my third run but even with the cone I was leading the class. Justin and Karen did show up and Justin put down a great first run but then their tires corded and neither could get back to that time. I was left about .600 back from Justin because everytime I pushed harder I caught a cone. I want to run against you guys again even if I am on old tires. My fronts have over 25 runs on them now and look great and my rears have over 50 runs and are starting to get beat looking. As for who I am running for I have yet to decide.

BTW: I do have another set of new Hoosiers sitting in my closet should I decide to bring out some new tires to run against you guys.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:21 am 
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Keith (or anyone else),

I have three 245/35-18 A6s left over. The RF one has 18 runs on it...8 runs from Sanford and then flipped for 10 runs at Laurinburg. The Lburg shoulder is pretty worn in, but the other side is pretty fresh. The other two were always on the rear of the 330i, so they are evenly worn with what appears to be useful life left (total of about 35 runs on them). The LF one I threw out as Lburg killed it. Let me know if you're interested in them -- I will sell them cheap, very cheap.

Chuck

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:36 am 
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Chuck Branscomb wrote:
Keith (or anyone else),

I have three 245/35-18 A6s left over. The RF one has 18 runs on it...8 runs from Sanford and then flipped for 10 runs at Laurinburg. The Lburg shoulder is pretty worn in, but the other side is pretty fresh. The other two were always on the rear of the 330i, so they are evenly worn with what appears to be useful life left (total of about 35 runs on them). The LF one I threw out as Lburg killed it. Let me know if you're interested in them -- I will sell them cheap, very cheap.

Chuck


Unfortunately, as Bryan learned at the Finger Lakes ProSolo, the Hoosiers on the front a Crossfire are never going to work. After 3 runs, they were already getting the bevelled edge that will turn to cord in 12-15 runs. He switched to the Kumhos up front and will sell his as well. On a well cambered car, they're awesome. - AB

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:04 am 
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Aaron Buckley wrote:
Unfortunately, as Bryan learned at the Finger Lakes ProSolo, the Hoosiers on the front a Crossfire are never going to work. After 3 runs, they were already getting the bevelled edge that will turn to cord in 12-15 runs. He switched to the Kumhos up front and will sell his as well. On a well cambered car, they're awesome. - AB


I will agree with Aaron on this one. The Kuhmos I have now have the previously stated almost 30 runs and they look great. My Hoosiers were already corded by this point.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:11 am 
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Keith Vail wrote:
Aaron Buckley wrote:
Unfortunately, as Bryan learned at the Finger Lakes ProSolo, the Hoosiers on the front a Crossfire are never going to work. After 3 runs, they were already getting the bevelled edge that will turn to cord in 12-15 runs. He switched to the Kumhos up front and will sell his as well. On a well cambered car, they're awesome. - AB


I will agree with Aaron on this one. The Kuhmos I have now have the previously stated almost 30 runs and they look great. My Hoosiers were already corded by this point.


Looks like we all agree on this one -- on stock class cars with not enough camber available, Hoosiers are out.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:57 am 
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Chuck Branscomb wrote:
Looks like we all agree on this one -- on stock class cars with not enough camber available, Hoosiers are out.


Well, it still depends on the tire and car. I think it may be that on cars with large wheels and very low profile rubber you are probably right. But my STi is a stock class car that's pretty camber challenged and Hoosiers still do okay. But I've got a lot more sidewall, too. There are a lot of other cases where camber challenged cars can still get reasonable life out of Hoosiers. The Crossfire is a bit more of an oddity for some reason, though I think it may just be those 18's with the low profile tires. The Hoosier construction just doesn't seem to work in that case...


--Donnie


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:06 pm 
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Donnie Barnes wrote:
Well, it still depends on the tire and car. I think it may be that on cars with large wheels and very low profile rubber you are probably right. But my STi is a stock class car that's pretty camber challenged and Hoosiers still do okay. But I've got a lot more sidewall, too. There are a lot of other cases where camber challenged cars can still get reasonable life out of Hoosiers. The Crossfire is a bit more of an oddity for some reason, though I think it may just be those 18's with the low profile tires. The Hoosier construction just doesn't seem to work in that case...


--Donnie


I think the sidewall height is a big deal and does lead to the premature shoulder wear. The Crossfire isn't extremely light, but it's not that heavy either. With 56% up front, it's putting 1635# up front, which even with a double A arm car, may be too much for 245's. If this thing could fit a 275, I think our problems would be solved. - AB

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:36 am 
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BFG promotional video done at VIR on the R1...Eric is a Toyo dealer even. :D

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1H9yCQUp1Rw

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