THSCC Forums

This will eliminate the "I did not know the rules" arguement, as weak as that excuse is

solo 2 class classing

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

There's nothing on that list about motor mounts

Actually, it would be pretty useful for the novice coordinators to have a bunch of copies of these, and give them to people who don't know their car class. Thus, they fill it out, and we can class them properly. When I was a novice coordinator, asking the question, 'Have you done anything to your car?' would get two types of responses: 1) Someone looking to give you the laundry list of all of their mods, or 2) Someone with a heavily modded car telling you, 'not much'. Asking the follow on questions to the second person can be difficult. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

I agree this would help. It might be even more useful for us to get permission to reproduce on our web site and have people do some homework BEFORE arriving at the event. That way they could register ahead of time with the correct class, speed things along at the novice table, etc.

Funny how in his worksheet, STX can't run tires wider than 225.

Which explains the problem... experienced people recommend a resource on the web, and that resource provides incorrect or misleading information. Noob reads the information and believes it. Noob uses equipment that noob read was legal for his class on the Internet, and gets



I don't know what the solution to this problem is, but the only way to be sure that everybody is playing perfectly by the rules all the time is to have impound like they have at national events. Scott, Jim, and whoever else is interested can go over all the cars and determine whether they're really fully-legal for the class they're running in, and reclass them if necessary. And if it's not important enough to do that, then...

But Kevin, they won't be ILLEGAL if they only run 225 tires, now will they?

The point is not whether Jim, or Aaron, or I can class your car. It is the DRIVERs responsibility to class their car properly (by the rules, not where the driver *feels* it belongs). If someone isn't classing their car properly (intentionally or untentionally) then it's up to their COMPETITION to call them on it.

And for god sakes people, if you aren't going to class your car properly because YOU don't believe part X really helps, but it should bump you to the next class... DON'T TELL US YOU ARE CHEATING AND EXPECT EVERYONE TO APPROVE. And definitely don't do it over and over and over for yourself and your friends. If your buddy wants to run a carbon fiber hood in STS, tell him to show up and see if he gets protested. Don't ask the list "Is it OK???". Because the answer is "No, by the rules, it's not OK." It becomes OK if he brings it, runs it, and doesn't get protested or approached to change his obviously incorrect class.

For me it boils down to this simple thing... Either class your car correctly, or cheat and keep your mouth shut about it and see if your compeditors notice.

Diane

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Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe

I think "a" worksheet or something like it would be a good idea. Especially for the novices.

What about doing a tech inspection of all novices the first time they come out to an event to give them a class. I know it would be more work for both the tech inspectors and the novice coordinators, but it would sort of head off at the pass some of these problems.

I think the majority of the misclass issues come from ignorance of the rules rather then someone trying to cheat. Though I have run accross the "other" group a couple of times. But at the same time if the person who is cheating or misclassed isn't competative anyway does it really matter? As mentioned before other competitors will probably step up when the person starts to win or place.

I agree that the majority of the misclass issues come from ignorance and are delt with by friendly discussions in the pits -->

Long time member: "Hey, did you know 21 inch wheels aren't legal in stock class for a Civic?."

Newbie Civic Owner: "No, really? What class should I be in???"

Long time member: "Those take you to Street Prepared. Your other option is running the original wheels next time you come. Then you can be in stock class."

That's going to happen. Everywhere. They don't even know enough to buy a rule book.

My issue is with people who DO know enough to buy a rule book and don't, or that know something about their car is illegal and run anyway.

Instituting "Newbie Tech" won't help a situation like we've been discussing since it's not a 1st timer newbie issue.

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Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe

Since you've obviously missed the point of the initial post in this thread, I'll explain my reply...

You can't trust Internet sources. Only thing you can trust is the rule book. If you really want everyone to follow the rules to the letter, you'll impound the cars and examine them with a rule book in hand. I've tried getting classing info off the Internet, and trust me - I know this from experience - it doesn't always match what's in the rule book. While the misinformation I easily found on that particular page happened to be one that still keeps the car legal, what if somewhere on the site there was a typo that allowed aftermarket springs in stock classes?





So how is cheating and keeping your mouth shut about it better than making sure that your competitors are aware of and are fine with a modification that makes your car technically illegal but spiritually okay for your class? (such as getting camber from $40 camber bolts instead of $200 camber plates)

I give up. I've decided that some people are just in this for the arguments, while others are in it for the friendly competition and playtime with their cars.

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

On an individual basis it might not matter. However, I think the danger of ignoring it is that it when it reaches the level that it's an "official" problem, it becomes a big deal, especially if significant money was spent on an illegal mod. With over 120 drivers at each event, we must recognize that a lot of people are spending a lot of time and money to become more competitive and excel within the sport, and that the rules are there to guide us.

So, back to the start of this thread - I think some additional education for the novices would be very valuable. Specifically - if we can provide something like the spreadsheet that would give a non-rulebook-carrying person something to start with, coupled with some words of wisdom (or warning) at the orientations that the expectation is that people stay within the rules, it would help get newbies off on the right foot and perhaps avoid costly mistakes.

It won't be perfect, but it won't take much effort either.

The bold section is my issue. You are either legal or not... there is no "spiritually okay".

As to whether it's better or not to "ask your compeditors" if they care... you are putting them in a position that isn't right. If they say "No, you need to class your car where it belongs." then they get the bum rap of "being a rules nazi" when all they really want is their competition to play by the same rules they are playing by. See below comment for an example. You imply that I (one of the people being most vocal about your not following the rule book and instead following what you *feel* is right for classing your car) am being a spoilsport about all this and just want to fight with you over it.



I'll continue to have my opinion about "rules are rules, like them or not, and they should be followed" and have no trouble voicing it, despite you and many others thinking I'm being a hardass. You are likewise entitled to your opinion that you know better than the SCCA does about making rules for classing cars, so you'll just put your car where you think it belongs, regardless of the rule book.

That said, I believe that if you intentionally misclass your car, you should keep it to yourself. The only thing you gain from "asking permission" repeatedly is comforting a guilty concience.

I'll say it again... You have the RESPONSIBILITY as the driver to class your car properly, according to the rule book. Your COMPETITION has the responsibility of bringing a protest if they don't believe you are properly classing yourself. Period.

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Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe

I will find out if we can get permission to post, and maybe the novice coordinators (Vince, Catenas (if they still belong ) and I ) can discuss with Tech Chief pursuing a "Novice Inspection and Classing"

I think people should just buy a rulebook like I did.

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2006 Civic Si - #24 HS for 2015

2005 GMC Sierra
1991 318is Garage Ornament