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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:55 am 
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Chuck Branscomb wrote:
Excellent words Donnie. I guess with age (I'm 48 ) and a background in mechanical engineering, I've always evaluated worker placements at autocross events from a different angle. For example, at Greenville workers were placed in the middle of the course with cars going by (rather closely) on BOTH sides, and with two cars on course there were times when it wasn't possible to easily watch just one car. That was an example of a very dangerous station since if you had to run, you might run into the path of another car...the type of thing when the club officers are in court and the attorney is grilling them with "what were you thinking?" type of stuff, there really won't be an answer.

From what I've seen over the years, almost nobody expects or plans for the worst case outcome. One tends to get drawn into a sense of "normal" after watching hundreds of runs with cars more or less on line. These worst case event potentials are much higher than the old days given the suspension setups and more importantly TIRES we have now. Few have respect for how long it will take to dissipate the energy in a car that looses it or has a mechanical failure. When you're working the course and have one of those coming at you, it is VERY hard to judge accurately which way to run (and if it’s a 95th percentile driver, he'll probably object fixate on you and "try not to hit you" which of course will lead him right over your tail).

[/soapbox off]

Chuck


Chuck,

The decision in Greenville we considered a reasonable risk. There shouldn't have been situations when the two cars were approaching the worker station truly simulataneously at least that was the plan, I wasn't watching the whole time though.

I guess I may have been desensitized a bit by running VMP events. In my decade of autocross its one of the only places I've feared for my life as a course worker. They usually set up all the worker stations down the middle of the lot at the light poles there. And the course goes by both directions and is usually very fast. When you have Mike Johson in a C5 Z06 going by in one direction at 75+ and Rod McGeorge approaching the other direction at 60+ in a C6 Z06 it can tend to raise the pulse rate a little. :shock: Oh, and these cars are significantly closer than they were to the worker station in Greenville. Sometimes as closer than 25 yds. You do have a light pole there, for "protection" but as narrow as the base is, its really unclear if that helps or hurts, just seems to throw some randomness and unpredictability into the situation more than anything as its hard to say which direction the light pole will deflect the car. Since there is a car speeding by the other direction, it kinda limits the direction one can run too. Both cars spin out at once, and your just the meat in a Corvette sandwich. :shock:

Not that unsafe practices at VMP excuse unsafe practices at THSCC events though. As AXVP this year, I leave an "open door" policy on safety. If you are being asked to do something you feel is unsafe, feel free to bring it up with me. I promise to give your concern serious consideration, but reserve the right to just tell you to shove off. ;-)


Last edited by Les Davis on Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:08 am 
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this makes me wonder:

who is the bigger dumbass, this "friend" who couldn't find the brake pedal, or Eddie Griffin. . .

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:17 am 
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BriceJohnson wrote:
this makes me wonder:

who is the bigger dumbass, this "friend" who couldn't find the brake pedal, or Eddie Griffin. . .


Wow Brice, for somebody that is usually so sensitive when somebody says something about you, that's pretty harsh.

Cut the guy some slack. Yes, the incident did suck. I'm sure the poor guy feels great about it. But let's face it, you weren't there and can't make any qualified statement about the incident. Things are happening fast out there and I know that when I've tried my hand at left-foot braking, I occasionally got confused if the course required shifting and stabbed the brake thinking it was the clutch. While that is probably more desirable than the opposite mistake, it can still lead to some surprise moments when you aren't ready for it.

But I bet you've never made a mistake in your life so it probably doesn't matter anyway. :roll:

Jim


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:54 am 
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Well, I'm certainly not an old hat at this stuff, but I guess since we are touching on course worker safety here I'll bring this up.

I would like to see a little more instruction given to new course workers before sending people out to work. I saw two course workers talking on their cell and taking pictures while working what I thought to be one of the more exciting spots on course, station #3 at Greenville. Now, snaping a shot isn't as bad as turning your back to a car coming in your direction, but doing it repeatedly suggests that your mind is not entirely on what you are out there to do. I did not mention anything to them, being relatively new on the scene myself, I don't want to look like a hardass or a course worker nazi or anything. :lol:

I just think that until you see something tragic happen in person, the importance of paying really close attention out there may not be immediately apparent to some. A little more time during the drivers meeting to discuss what is and is not a cone penalty ( I actually thought this was covered really well at Greenville), how to call things in on the radio and to stress the importance of always looking at the car on course would be a worthy investment of time to make sure everyone is safe out there.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:56 am 
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I'd almost bet the guy with the automatic C4 was left foot braking, cause it's pretty hard to get your right foot on the clutch in any car. I've recently started left foot braking on track and in autocross and boy is it easy to screw up. regardless of what you want to call him for wrecking the porsche, I'm sure he's a sorry puppy now, as is the owner.

On the Greenville course, Les is exactly on the money. There was NO time that two cars were sandwiching the workers. If they were there would have been a collision at the start of the sweeper. And the WC was told to put only experienced people at that sta. But the site still poses problems for worker positions no matter how you do it.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:12 am 
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Chuck Branscomb wrote:
From what I've seen over the years, almost nobody expects or plans for the worst case outcome.


Certainly true. I took a lot for granted even my first year or two as AX VP. After a few years though, I started treating everything as a potential for badness to occur. Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

Being able to accurately identify risk and plan for it accordingly is an exceedingly important job our officers have on their shoulders. And it's the kind of thing that you never stop learning, and mistakes will always be made.

I think it _is_ a testament to the intelligence and experience of our club officers that we have a good safety record. Plus a little bit of "luck". But as someone told me once, luck can be manufactured through hard work.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:05 pm 
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JamesFeinberg wrote:
BriceJohnson wrote:
this makes me wonder:

who is the bigger dumbass, this "friend" who couldn't find the brake pedal, or Eddie Griffin. . .


Wow Brice, for somebody that is usually so sensitive when somebody says something about you, that's pretty harsh.

Cut the guy some slack. Yes, the incident did suck. I'm sure the poor guy feels great about it. But let's face it, you weren't there and can't make any qualified statement about the incident. Things are happening fast out there and I know that when I've tried my hand at left-foot braking, I occasionally got confused if the course required shifting and stabbed the brake thinking it was the clutch. While that is probably more desirable than the opposite mistake, it can still lead to some surprise moments when you aren't ready for it.

But I bet you've never made a mistake in your life so it probably doesn't matter anyway. :roll:

Jim


Shees, I tried to make a funny to lighten the mood, that was all, sorry if it offended you.

I didn't think that this guy or friends of his were reading our forums (considering the event was in Portland, I think this is a fair assumption), so I wasn't worried about personally insulting him or anything.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:40 pm 
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http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f228/bandit027/

Amateur video of the course, make up your own minds about the safety of the finish.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:47 pm 
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In regard to the center work station at G'vlle. I worked it and had no "safety issues" even at my advanced (i.e. slow runner) age. Much better than some of the VMP stations I've worked.

One of the most fun and hard work stations I've ever worked was the North Course at Forbes Field during A Mod. It took awhile before I figured out that I should run more to get cones rather than stand in the target zone for a "stuck throttle" A Mod car approaching a heavy braking area. Wow was it neat to see REALLY fast A Mods coming at me at high speed and then slowing hard for a tight loop around me. Since they tend to have NO body panels I could see the drivers rather clearly and see what the tires were doing, etc.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:07 pm 
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DickRasmussen wrote:
In regard to the center work station at G'vlle. I worked it and had no "safety issues" even at my advanced (i.e. slow runner) age. Much better than some of the VMP stations I've worked.


Dick,

That is just what I was referring to above...the VAST majority of the time, there is no issue. This is the false sense of security that the typical outcome lures one into. It is the outlier events, many of which are preventable with a bit of planning, where trouble hits. I worked that center station since I was requested to as I have too many years of experience, and we actually had one scare when a Camaro got sideways and was headed right for us on the back side. Fortunately he got stopped, but not before we tripped over each other trying to get out of the way...it could have easily been an ugly situation. The room for error in a worst case situation at that station was profoundly small. We also had times when one would watch the launching side while the others watched the back side since there was action on both essentially at the same time on numerous occasions.

Chuck

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:37 pm 
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BriceJohnson wrote:
Shees, I tried to make a funny to lighten the mood, that was all, sorry if it offended you.


No worries. There isn't anything you could possibly say to ever offend me personally. Perhaps the use of emoticons would help with your intentions. Just a thought...

BriceJohnson wrote:
I didn't think that this guy or friends of his were reading our forums (considering the event was in Portland, I think this is a fair assumption), so I wasn't worried about personally insulting him or anything.


Great, so piling on when the guy can't even defend himself is so much better. The auto-x community is much smaller than most people realize and you never know who is listening. That's all I've got to say about this subject.

Jim


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:42 pm 
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Try insulting people to their faces - that's so much more fun than hiding in a members-only forum and insulting them.

:D

(it is, really)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:43 pm 
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Course design can only account for a minor role here IMHO. You can't design out driver error. I was at a national event where a driver lost control coming thru an admitedly too fast finish then instead of just getting the car stopped as quickly and safely as possible tried to play hero and save it. He ended up crossing the entire lot back past the start area and hitting a shipping container about 100 yards from the finish, hard enough to severely damage his car and move the container. Yes the course design was partially at fault, but driver error was the primary cause of the incident, which seems from the reports to be a similar case here. Safety is EVERYONE'S responsibility and should NEVER be taken for granted!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:57 pm 
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damn guys, the whole point is that it WASN'T intended as an insult to the guy, just as a casual joke, and I figured I could make the joke at his expense since he was unlikely to ever read it/be offended by it. I had no idea that others would be offended by it. Its not that I was trying to insult him behind his back, I wasn't trying to insult him at all, just to make a funny.

If I ever see Eddie Griffin in person, I WILL insult him to his face though, rest assured

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Last edited by BriceJohnson on Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:57 pm 
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I hate working the course at autox and I must tell you about it, often.

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Bernie Baake wrote:
On the Greenville course, Les is exactly on the money. There was NO time that two cars were sandwiching the workers. If they were there would have been a collision at the start of the sweeper. And the WC was told to put only experienced people at that sta. But the site still poses problems for worker positions no matter how you do it.


I worked WC with Rob and we did do exactly as requested and made sure at least 1 seasoned AX'r was at that station, preferably both people. We also told a couple of people to leave the umbrellas and chairs in the pit because they were not allowed on course. Didn't think about camcorders, cameras, cell phones, portable tvs, etc... Apparently we need to add that reminder to the drivers meeting. It seems that common sense is lacking in some respect and people aren't taking it seriously enough.


Bernie Baake wrote:
I'd almost bet the guy with the automatic C4 was left foot braking, cause it's pretty hard to get your right foot on the clutch in any car. I've recently started left foot braking on track and in autocross and boy is it easy to screw up. regardless of what you want to call him for wrecking the porsche, I'm sure he's a sorry puppy now, as is the owner.


I came from AXing my C4 with A4 trans and left foot braking almost exclusively. When I went to the Z06 it was an adjustment to go back to a stick. I did have to remind myself the left foot was operating the clutch, not the brake pedal. It's definitely plausible that the guy went to what he naturally used for the brakes and got the clutch. Regardless, he made a serious mistake, and then the chain reaction started.


The only good that comes out of these incidents is a wake up call to everyone that it can happen, and it can happen to you. So if it forces us to review any safety issues then we are making something good come out of a bad incident.

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