⚠ Forum Archived — The THSCC forums were discontinued (last post: 2024-05-18). This read-only archive preserves club history. Visit thscc.com →  |  Search this archive with Google: site:forums.thscc.com your search terms

THSCC Forums

Tarheel Sports Car Club Forums
It is currently Tue Apr 07, 2026 10:11 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 62 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:21 pm 
Offline
Just call me Bo

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:39 pm
Posts: 1431
Location: SYPHAJFD
Vincent Keene wrote:
GPS devices that are "sub-meter" accurate ain't cheap.


Yep, they are crazy expensive. It seems the cost jump is about the same whether you are looking for high-accuracy or a high-sampling rate. If you want them both, ouch!

Luckily, there may be a low cost solution to the accuracy problem. Stay tuned...

Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:41 pm 
Offline
Just call me Bo

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:39 pm
Posts: 1431
Location: SYPHAJFD
Chuck Frank wrote:
Jim, re: drift. Is what you are showing in the start blowup really drift, or do you have the software set to offset the paths since the offsets are in run order?


That's all drift. I'm not playing any games with the data or the display of it. You are barking up the wrong tree.

Chuck Frank wrote:
I don't expect that my 100.00 "streets and trips" with GPS uses as high a sampling rate as the DL1 yet I can "see" when I change lanes on the expressway when zoomed in, and my 300.00 Garmin that is WAAS enabled is more sensitive than that, it moves when I walk a couple steps with it in my hands and even measures my walking speed.


You are mixing issues. The sampling rate has very little to do with the accuracy issue. Off topic but a navigation system's sampling rate doesn't need to be any more than 1Hz to be perfectly effective. The DL-1 can see the same relative positional changes as the Garmin as I mentioned before.

I'm just trying to lay down some basics before we launch into the course discussion. I've had more than a few people ask me the same questions and it is clear that there are some unrealistic expectations with some of these products. While they are *extremely* useful, they are not perfect and if somebody is thinking of picking one up, I'd like them to be as aware as possible of the potential issues and limitations. One such example is that you are *not* going to walk around and "mark" the cones on the course with the current technology. At least not yet... :wink:

Let me finish my accuracy rant and it should be more clear. Maybe... :wink:

Jim
- btw, the cat is home and relaxing
- ever try to give a cat an asthma inhaler? not pretty...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:12 pm
Posts: 552
Location: The State of Chaos
JamesFeinberg wrote:
I'm just trying to lay down some basics before we launch into the course discussion. I've had more than a few people ask me the same questions and it is clear that there are some unrealistic expectations with some of these products. While they are *extremely* useful, they are not perfect and if somebody is thinking of picking one up, I'd like them to be as aware as possible of the potential issues and limitations. One such example is that you are *not* going to walk around and "mark" the cones on the course with the current technology. At least not yet... :wink:

Let me finish my accuracy rant and it should be more clear. Maybe... :wink:

Jim
- btw, the cat is home and relaxing
- ever try to give a cat an asthma inhaler? not pretty...


You read my mind! I guess I'm not the first one to think about marking the cones and then "connecting the dots" with my laps. :lol:

As for the cat, may I suggest the following:
1- cut a hole in a box
2- Put your cat in the box
3- Squirt the inhaler through the hole
:D

_________________
~ RallyX VP 2009 ~
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'92 Prelude
'76 Celica


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:01 pm 
Offline
Just call me Bo

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:39 pm
Posts: 1431
Location: SYPHAJFD
Ash Nelson wrote:
As for the cat, may I suggest the folowing:
1- cut a hole in a box
2- Put your cat in the box
3- Squirt the inhaler through the hole
:D


Unfortunately they gave me this little tube thing that has to fit over his face to use properly. I've mostly stopped bleeding from the first application. Mostly... :lol:

He's been on 'roids for the past few months to help with his breathing but they aren't good for him and he is having other issues. Hopefully he will take to the inhaler a little better and the meds can go straight into his lungs instead of everywhere in his little body.

Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:12 pm
Posts: 552
Location: The State of Chaos
I can't even imagine a cat that wouldn't be pissed if you put that thing on it's head. :shock:

_________________
~ RallyX VP 2009 ~
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'92 Prelude
'76 Celica


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:14 pm 
Offline
(that's pronouced 'bah-kah)
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 11:12 am
Posts: 1038
Location: Durham
In reference to the cat. Wrap him in a towel, it'll save both you and him.
as to the GPS
The accuracy of the gps is not determined by the sampling rate( that only enhances the definition of your displays. the accuracy is more dependent on the number of satellites that your unit can track. This feature and WAAS enabled will still give you a CEP( circular error probability) of around six to eight feet. up until a few years ago the military wobulated the signals to insure they would not be used for missile guidance. Perhaps they still are, or not. who knows. The goverment won't tell you when they do things like that.

_________________
2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:25 am 
Offline
I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:08 pm
Posts: 1524
Location: Raleigh NC
JamesFeinberg wrote:
Chuck Frank wrote:
Jim, re: drift. Is what you are showing in the start blowup really drift, or do you have the software set to offset the paths since the offsets are in run order?


That's all drift. I'm not playing any games with the data or the display of it. You are barking up the wrong tree.

quote]
Jim, didn't mean to imply you were "playing with the data", I'm trying to learn my new DL1 software and noticed that "offset paths" was the default setting in the software, just wanted to verify that you had noticed and reset that option, it looked like the default was still on in the coursemap you posted. I realize you only showed a very small area of the map in your drift posting so it was impossible to tell if "offset paths" was what was causing the offset or not. Not trying to be antagonistic or steal your thunder, just trying to learn. :oops:
It just seemed odd that the "drift" would be sequential and relatively equal for each run, unless the satellites do "wobble" as Bernie suggested. I hope to generate 8 runs of raw data files tomorrow at Greensboro, so I'll be able to see if there has been any change in the accuracy and/or drift in the latest version of the logger. I had to wait a couple weeks for my revised version to arrive from England. The rep in VA could not tell me exactly what was changed tho.

_________________
SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:24 pm 
Offline
Just call me Bo

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:39 pm
Posts: 1431
Location: SYPHAJFD
I really didn’t mean this discussion to degrade into a discussion about how GPS works or why it kinda sucks for our purposes but since we’re riding this snowball straight to hell, we may as well see how close we can get. If you really want to understand the issues with positional GPS, I would suggest picking up the book “Understanding GPS, Principles and Applications.” It is *not* light reading but it is the best reference I’ve seen so far. It took me a good 6 months to properly get through it but I had to look up a lot of stuff referenced from the book. I am not smart man, but I know what love is… :)

The abridged Cliff’s Notes version in shorthand tells us that the source of the “wandering” is due to many factors. GPS relies heavily on time stamping and even something simple as a slight mismatch between the crystals driving the clocks on the satellites versus the ones in our receivers are enough to throw the entire thing off a few meters. Once you start factoring in the continually changing atmospheric conditions and a host of other issues, it’s somewhat amazing it works at all!

I did some experiments and observed a drift of roughly 30 feet over a period of a few hours. What does that mean? Not much by itself, actually. What is important is that the “drift” had a nearly constant motion moving the observed position by anywhere from 0.5 to 1.5 feet per second. The speed of the “drift” is highly dependant on location and environment but that number turns out to be fairly representative of other’s observation. Another property of the “drift” is that it never wanders off too far from its true location.

Suddenly the “drift” is an entity! Let’s call him Bob. Bob is a heavy drinker. Bob got into some trouble with the law a while back and they put him in the middle of a circle. The circle isn’t really shaped like a circle but it is close enough. The circle’s size changes all the time but it is generally in the 60-foot diameter range. In the middle of the circle is a “device” that is linked to the ankle bracelet Bob is wearing. As Bob moves further away from the center, the “device” sends a signal that shocks Bob with increasing intensity.

The center of the circle is supposed to be Bob’s true location. But Bob is restless-- and drunk. Bob is a little numb (drunk, remember!) so he doesn’t really feel the shock of his ankle bracelet until he gets closer to the edges of his circle of confinement. The shock naturally guides Bob back towards the center but even if he hits it spot on, he doesn’t stay there very long. Bob is a drunk with a bad caffeine habit! It really doesn’t matter why Bob moves about like he does, the question is can we sit him still long enough to get something useful out of him?

Well, we can’t really sit him still without sobering him up. Sobering him up would require very expensive rehab and is hard to justify. I mean, come one, it’s just Bob! Bob gets no love. So what can we do? Let’s use Bob in an experiment. Bob won’t mind! We are going to build a container big enough to house Bob and his circle so we can move him around. Think “Bob in a petrie dish”. Bob’s “device” is naturally located in the center of the petrie dish and we are going to move that center point along a pre-defined path. Meanwhile, Bob is busy wandering around inside his circle and we are going to record his position at set intervals like, say, 10 times a seconds.

The result? Bob finally passed out from all the drinking. But before he did that, we managed to record his path along with the true path we moved the center of his circle along. So what do we know about Bob and the path he took? Remember, we were moving Bob and Bob was moving himself to generate the path. Bob is a bastard for making our lives difficult! We’ll get back at him eventually.

OK, so Bob started somewhere within his circle. Where? It doesn’t really matter as long as we record it. A tenth of a second later, we record his position again. Now in that time, we moved the petrie dish slightly and Bob moved as well. Now this is key, remember when we said that Bob is moving around pretty slowly? How slowly exactly? In general, he moves around at about 1/2 mph. That’s pretty slow. Bob doesn’t really have a predicable pattern but as long as we are moving faster than a walking speed, Bob’s movement gets lost in the noise. Think about it in these terms: in the 1/10 of a second between sample times, Bob won’t move more than a couple of inches in most of the worst cases. Under just good conditions, Bob’s movement is limited to around an inch which is very good indeed. At only 30mph, the petrie dish will move 4.4 feet in a 1/10 of a second which if Bob is messing us up by an inch, represents less than a 2% error. It gets even better as you collect data over a longer interval and explains why the course maps are at least representative of reality. They may have a little “drunken wobble” in them but it isn’t anything you can’t work around.

You can probably start to see how adding accelerometers to the mix can make things more accurate. Imagine outfitting Bob with lie detector. Every time you take a sample of Bob’s position, you ask him if he moved. Since Bob is a drunk and a notorious liar, you use the lie detector as a sanity check and adjust accordingly. For example, if the accelerometers, I mean, lie detector shows movement but yet Bob swears up and down he’s been in the same position all day, who are you going to believe? This step is definitely not necessary but it gives you a little extra piece of mind as to the validity of your results.

Is there anything else we can do? Since I’m big tease, I’ll leave you with this: Imagine if we could clone Bob. See, those sheep were handy! Seriously, think about what we could do if we had an exact copy of Bob.

Next installment: Cloning Bob and the big accuracy wrap up.

Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:40 pm 
Offline
Queen of the Guinea Hens
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 11:32 pm
Posts: 3122
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
My observed opinion as an engineer, not necessarily in this exact discipline, and not entirely smart, but having used data for at least a year now...

First, the reason Chuck can see himself change lanes on a $100 GPS is twofold. First and foremost, all GPS's that have signal are sensitive enough to see that amount of movement. So then you think it *should* be able to lock on tight enough to align two autocross runs, right? I mean, you are always on the road and you can even see yourself change lanes on a $100 GPS in your car. Ah, problem here. The GPS has very accurate ROAD DATA and thus cheats a little by using the road data to adjust for the natural drift that Jim is explaining. You'll see that when you're on a stretch of new road that isn't in your GPS map. As you take the new "fork" to the new part of a road (the new chunk of US-1 that goes around Vass is a good example) you'll stay on the old road for a whlie...then it will "snap" out in to the middle of nowhere -or- whatever road on the map that is "close enough" to where you really are.

So the problem here for our use is no baseline map to "snap" to. Jim is very much right in that accelerometers help make our data VERY accurate relative to where we started. Problem is that "where we started" gets varied by the GPS due to the drift of Bob (I hate sloppy drunks) and thus we get very relatively accurate run data that may or may not overlay nicely. IMHO, all we need is a way to slide the data around so we can align our start points. Since autocross runs are short, I've never seen drift bad enough that a run would start to not align in the middle, but I've had drift so bad in Denver that the two runs were literally something like 40 feet off (Jim, I could send you that data if you're working on some solution to this).

For autocross we don't care which run is closest to no drift or even to average a bunch of runs to find the closest spot. The data, relative to within a single run, is close enough, IMHO. We just need a way to align the start of all runs to the first (or whichever) one. That would speed up data analysis (or even make run data useful at all...my drift as seen in Denver made a couple of those runs useless to try to analyze).

Chuck, just give up the idea of marking cones and even start finish by walking around with the DL-1. Not worth taking it out of the car for. It's easy enough to find the start using the data and then the finish using the time of your run (and looking at data). It'll be fairly obvious where the cones are from the data, and I've never found not having them to be much of a problem. The data itself probably won't be accurate enough for a LONG time to tell if you're leaving time on course because you're way too far off a cone. Use an observer to find that out (well, you'll see if a codriver is way closer to cones in a slalom than you are or something, but that's about it).


--Donnie


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:47 pm 
Offline
Queen of the Guinea Hens
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 11:32 pm
Posts: 3122
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Chuck, any chance you could be convinced to crop the right side of your avatar a bit? As it sits now a quick glance could make someone think it's a blue penis head in the frame. I won't name names as to who pointed this out to me unless the person pisses me off. *cough*


--Donnie


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:11 pm 
Offline
Just call me Bo

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:39 pm
Posts: 1431
Location: SYPHAJFD
Let’s clone Bob. Meet Bob 3.0. Don’t ask what happened to Bob 2.0-- ugly incident in the cloning lab. So what can we do with 2 Bobs? One of the properties of the cloning process is that the clones tend to exhibit the same behavior at the exact same time. In Bob’s case, the only behavior he exhibits is walking around in a seemingly random pattern drinking but we can finally use that against him in a sense. The key is that both Bobs wander around drinking in synchronization with one another.

Bob 3.0’s job isn’t as interesting as Bob’s job. We keep his petrie dish stationary and just let him wander about as he pleases. Meanwhile, Bob’s pretire dish is out running through the course, I mean, traveling along its path collecting position samples as before. The difference this time is that each time we take a sample of Bob’s position, we take a sample of Bob 3.0’s position along with it. After we’re done, we now have 2 paths generated: one representing Bob’s path out in the “real world” and another representing Bob 3.0’s path around his circle of confinement.

Ah hah! Now the tables turn! Another way to look at Bob 3.0’s path is that it also represents a simple change in position from his original spot over time. For each position sample we took, if we adjust Bob’s path by the change in Bob 3.0’s path, we should wind up with a path minus the wandering! This is the idea of differential GPS and most of the higher end products employ this method to some degree. It will help you get positional data with high accuracy within a limited area and I believe I’ve figured out a way to do this with the DL-1. From some of the *very* limited testing I’ve done, we may be able to get sub-meter accuracy after all. This is something the big brother to the DL-1 can do and it is a very expensive option. I imagine Race Technology doesn’t want people doing this with their “low end” product so while I’ll give some small updates as I progress, I want to keep it somewhat on the guarded side.

So what was the point of all that? I’m not really sure. :)

Next installment: The degree to which Bob is a bastard.

Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:15 pm 
Offline
Just call me Bo

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:39 pm
Posts: 1431
Location: SYPHAJFD
Donnie Barnes wrote:
We just need a way to align the start of all runs to the first (or whichever) one. That would speed up data analysis (or even make run data useful at all...my drift as seen in Denver made a couple of those runs useless to try to analyze).


I've got a solution! I'm still polishing it but check out my next installment very carefully.

We need to chat on Sunday and I think you'll be a happy man.

Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:28 pm 
Offline
Queen of the Guinea Hens
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 11:32 pm
Posts: 3122
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
I fall in the "I'm not a smart man" category, and thus I don't see how to achieve your differential solution without a second DL-1, particularly since you've pointed out that differences in crystals and such could change the properties of two different GPS's somewhat in terms of drift. Sure, even two DL-1's could be slightly off, but I'm guessing the thinking would be that as long as they have the same electronic radio they won't be off by enough to matter and will "drift" in tandem.

It's been pointed out, too, that a big player in this is letting the GPS "cook in" more than you're likely to be doing it if you have it on switched power in the car and don't leave the car running between runs. I'm planning to move mine to a battery pack for this very reason.


--Donnie


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:08 pm 
Offline
Tadpole Lover

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm
Posts: 3479
Quote:
Chuck, any chance you could be convinced to crop the right side of your avatar a bit? As it sits now a quick glance could make someone think it's a blue penis head in the frame. I won't name names as to who pointed this out to me unless the person pisses me off. *cough*


--Donnie


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Maybe it's Buckley's?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:14 pm 
Offline
Just call me Bo

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:39 pm
Posts: 1431
Location: SYPHAJFD
Donnie Barnes wrote:
I fall in the "I'm not a smart man" category, and thus I don't see how to achieve your differential solution without a second DL-1, particularly since you've pointed out that differences in crystals and such could change the properties of two different GPS's somewhat in terms of drift. Sure, even two DL-1's could be slightly off, but I'm guessing the thinking would be that as long as they have the same electronic radio they won't be off by enough to matter and will "drift" in tandem.


Getting rid of Bob's wander would definitely take a second unit. I want to run some experiments quantifying how much that might be and I think we'll be pleasantly surprised.

Donnie Barnes wrote:
It's been pointed out, too, that a big player in this is letting the GPS "cook in" more than you're likely to be doing it if you have it on switched power in the car and don't leave the car running between runs. I'm planning to move mine to a battery pack for this very reason.


I've heard that too. In my case, I've been keeping the unit on during my runs and only shutting it down after my heat. In the case of Tarheel events, that means it gets shut off between my morning and afternoon runs but I'm thinking it may not matter much anymore.

Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 62 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group