THSCC Forums

my email to this addy got returned...any other addresses to try?

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05 MCS

Most people don't realize that everyone has a different tolerance for "allowable cheating". To each and every person, you're right and everyone else is wrong. It's human nature. And I have noticed the same gradiation of opinions on safety equipment as well.

We have one person who thinks that no rule bending at all is acceptable. What about that missing fastener?

We have several people who think that missing fasteners are OK. How about a missing trim piece? Or missing insulation?

We one person who probably thinks that the above are OK, as well as modified (duct tape?) stock items. What else can be "modified" with duct tape, hmm?

And we have several people who think that replacing parts with more reliable stuff is OK if it doesn't make the car faster.

And there are the people who are cheating even worse and know it who aren't posting because they learned to keep their mouths shut!

See what I mean? People in every group are sure they are right. How do we define the line between weenie and substantial? Everyone has their own definition, and I bet when questioned, even people (Diane) who believe 100% in the rules even will agree to some violations, thereby becoming just as guilty as everyone else here.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

IMO you can look at the rules in two different ways. Number one is all black and white with no interpretation at all. It's either legal or it's not. Number two is to use the rules as a guide allowing the intent to be determined. Intent can be a gray area but it allows latitude in situations that aren't always black and white.

People who are really competitive know when their interpretation of a rule would result in an unfair advantage. I don't think these type of people wouldn't do it if they thought it was in fact "cheating". I'd never feel good about a win if *I* knew I gained an unfair advantage with an illegal mod. However if I knew the mod was *technically* illegal but would in no way give me an advantage I'd use it in good conscious.

For example I've never inspected Art's car, but know the kind of competitor he is I'm sure he wouldn't use anything he thought would give him an illegal advantage. To my knowledge he's never inspected our car because I would hope he knows that we share the same sense of fairness.

After reading his post I *think* Chris is 99.9% sure this mod does not give him any advantage. Sounds like he's trying to save a buck by replacing an inferior part over and over. I can't see Aaron or any other quality STS competitor getting bent out shape over it.

Just my .02

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Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

Yet another learning experience for Kevin...



Kevin
(who will be running SM tomorrow night because motor mounts and camber bolts are not legal for DSP until 1/1/04... )

I think all duct tape mods should be legal.

Seriously I plan to order a new part this winter so the duct tape can go away. But your point is valid.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Would I protest Richard and his fastener? No. But would I protest an engine swap? Probably not, since I just don't much care where I place, and if the people that do care can let it go, I'm not going to ruin anyone's fun.

But, I do have pride enough in MYSELF to class MY car appropriately, thereby upholding my responsibility to my compeditors. I guess that's where my disappointment (and thus my pet peeve) lies... in that not everyone is like that. You'd think at nearly 30 years old I'd stop believing people want to play life by the rules. More and more it seems to be about what people can get away with in life. Just look at some of the suits brought and *HEARD* in court in the last 5 or 10 years... but I digress.

Do I think that people running illegal cars should keep it to themselves? Yes, what can they possibly gain by telling their compeditors that their car is illegal... except perhaps alleviating a guilty concience?

It is *your* responsibility to class your car appropriately. Likewise, it's up to your compeditors to figure it out if you're not, and protest you if they deem whatever they find to be performance enhancing. It's not up to you to advertise it.

But like Mr. Whitney points out... not everyone has the same level of "tollerance" for things.

Diane

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Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe

to everyone reading these posts, please don't assume that the new valve is illegal.

my purpose in opening this post was not to decide if "bending" the rules is OK or not. the purpose was to decide if the new valve is "bending" the rules in the first place.

i guess it breaks down to the interpretation of the rule book:

does "smoothing out the boost curve" equate to "changing boost levels"...if it does, then it's illegal.

i'm of the opinion (although a bias one) that it doesn't equate. think about a boost curve on an X/Y axis (X=rpm's, Y=PSI). The new valve won't shift the Y axis up or down right, so the level doesn't change.

does this logic hold up?

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05 MCS

Ask yourself this... does a "smoother boost curve" keep the car more settled? how about allow you to get on the gas earlier, even if it's just a split second?

I don't know the answers to these question, I've never owned anything with boost, but "smoother" seems like it'd be "better" if I was just to guess.

Good luck.

Diane

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Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe

Good point. Ok everyone put down the ball bats and stop hitting each other in the head.



If I remember correctly I seem to remember reading a huge number of posts on a Subaru board (which researching the option of running an Impreza RS next year) and I think there was a discussion regarding that same issue. Tom Hoppe may have even been involved so he may know the answer (or have an informed opinion). If I remember correctly I think that ANY change (not just to max boost) was not allowed. I think the specific Subaru issue dealt with throttle/boost response. Not sure if that applies here or not.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Another question would be, does smoothing the boost curve help keep knock at check? Which might allow the computer to be more aggressive with timing....

I don't know the answers to any of these questions, but this might help you see the STAC's point of view.

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In need of car.

I will bet you $20 I can find something illegal on your car. If I do, will you still say you play by the rules?


(Chris, sorry for the thread hijack)

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Chris,

To answer your original question. The valve is probably illegal or at best it falls into a grey area. Usually with parts that affect boost, even those that only smooth things out, the SCCA would probably fall on the side of keeping the part stock. There rules seem to ere on the side of caution with all things related to boost on turbo cars.

Shawn

Bring it on. Remember you're comparing to CSP rules. But if you do find something illegal that I am unaware of, I would be more than happy to move to the next appropriate class.

Diane

edit: possible inflamatory question removed.

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Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe

As somebody that drives a "boosted" car, I fully believe that the smoothing of the boost curve is a definite benefit. I had an electronic boost controller at the beginning of the year which had a control solenoid that, in my opinion, wasn't fast enough. Instead of buying a more expensive one, I opted for a cheapy mechanical one that had the same effect of smoothing the boost curve. While the more expensive solution would have been an even better advantage, the cheaper one was good enough.

Suffice to say, it helped with the drivability of the car immensely. Not only could I get on the gar sooner and harder without worrying about a boost spike spinning the rear tires, I could modulate the car in long sweepers much easier. All of this resulted in a much easier to drive car (relatively speaking, of course) and thus greatly improved "lap times". Note that at no time did I change the maximum amount of boost I was using, I was just using a boost curve that was shaped differently.

Another interesting thing to note is that the electronic boost control solenoid that came on the car was giving me more boost earlier in the rpm band. It was using a feature of the ecu called "boost assist" which tries to add to the low end power of the engine. While it did precisely that, it made part throttle situations (which is usually 95% of a auto-x course for me) very dicey. The manual boost controller that I rigged up was softer on the bottom end but much easier to deal with. I didn't discover until later that I could turn off the boost assist but by then, I didn't bother reverting back to the old setup. As a side benefit of the manual controller, one less thing to worry about breaking.

My 2c...

Jim

hey Tom, care to add your opinion...being in STX I belive you have the same "don't mess with the turbo" restrictions as I do in STS. Have you run into this question before?

Also, I seem to remember reading that chaning the intercooler pipes were legal in STS/STX. Is that illegal, legal?

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05 MCS