will this kick me out of STS?

Diane Hall · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:36 pm

Jonathan - You should NEVER go to Nationals then.

Just think about it... if the line on right and wrong isn't the rules, then what is it? Your idea of "performance enhancing" and someone elses might be different. Who's right?

I'm not "harsh" I just believe people ought to follow the rules. If you don't like the rules, then try to get them changed, but in the meantime run in the appropriate class for how you've set up your car.

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:37 pm

Chris Brown wrote:

jimpastorius wrote:

If you want the official opinion, email the scca for clarification. The STAC should provide you with a quick answer.

i looked over the scca.com web page and couldn't find a suitable email address. would you happen to have it?

Try stac@scca.com

Matthew_Thomson · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:40 pm

i guess theres a fine line between cheating and bending/breaking rules.. if you followed every rule the club lays down someone here wouldnt be competing anymore for cutting tires on site at an event by doing donuts...

i'm with señor rodriguez on the performance comment

Adam Ligon · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:45 pm

Jonathan Rodriguez wrote:

Man, you people are harsh. You want to DQ cars that had a mod that didn't help them performance-wise just because you can? What happened to the spirit, not the letter of the law? If people are using parts that don't help the car's performance, but makes it more reliable, I say let them use it. Our sport is expensive enough. The intent of the rules is to keep people from giving their cars an unfair performance advantage. If a mod doesn't go against that philosophy, what's the problem?

ALong these lines, I see a split in the club as to how people approach autoxing. There are the highly competative members, most of whom travel to other groups and national events. Then there are the rest. We are a private club/group. We "use" the SCCA's rules since it is easier to do so and allows for continuity with other groups and national events.

If we as a club want to allow or disallow different mods, etc, then we can. Just look over to the TIR class posts, which don't exisit on a national level. I know of many people in the club who are "cheating" technically in their class. But as was mentioned earlier if the part in question doen't give an autox benefit then what is the problem?

At least Chris asked before he did it. Would anyone have known or been able to tell? No. If he does it will somebody in STS protest him? Probably not. If the protest was up to me to decide would I hold it up? No, even though it does violate the rules.

Anyway there's my $.02

Adam
STS and DSP driver

Jonathan Rodriguez · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:52 pm

Diane Hall wrote:

Jonathan - You should NEVER go to Nationals then.

Just think about it... if the line on right and wrong isn't the rules, then what is it? Your idea of "performance enhancing" and someone elses might be different. Who's right?

I'm not "harsh" I just believe people ought to follow the rules. If you don't like the rules, then try to get them changed, but in the meantime run in the appropriate class for how you've set up your car.

Yeah yeah... I think a little common sense on mods would go a long way. We all know enough about cars to know which mods really would give a performance advantage.

I can understand your point about Nationals. Those people are serious enough where the only way to maintain order is to follow the rulebook to a t. At our friendly local events though, I think it's silly to get that bent out of shape over stuff that everyone knows doesn't really make a difference.

Diane Hall · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:55 pm

Adam, On one level I agree with you... it's all for fun, so who cares if some people aren't following the letter of the rule book. Mod X doesn't help with autocrossing anyway. Problem is, you do have people who care about the rules and think they should be followed since they are the rules our club has *said* they will follow. Here's where my pet peeve comes in. The club has adopted the SCCA rule book. We should either follow it, or adopt a different set of rules. (Which in and of itself would be a nightmare... believe me, it's been discussed.)

Here's an example... my black Miata has an ACT clutch in it, which I personally don't believe is an autocross advantage. I also sometimes run 14x5.5 wheels from the 1.6L Miata instead of 14x6 wheels from the 1.8L Miata. Again I don't personally believe that this is a performance advantage. So, should I be able to run in, what is it now, CS? No, because despite whether *I* personally believe these items are performanc enhancing, they are not legal in Stock class, so to CSP I go.

If people really are out for the fun of it, like many are claiming, then why NOT run in the proper class? It's only for fun, and since we post results, you can always see where you'd be in the class you personally think is appropriate.

I'm not trying to make anyone agree with me here, just trying to get folks to see another way of looking at it.

Diane

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:55 pm

A non stock motor mount, assuming it's made of stiffer than stock materials is a decided performance advantage. Protesting that motor mount would not be a "weenie" protest.

Weenie protests are over things like missing fasteners.

I don't ever actually check my competitors cars for illegal equipment (short of very obvious, visible things), but evidently I should, because it seems I've met enough autocrossers over the years that are great people but think that the rules are for naitonal competitors only.

How would you feel at a local event if people began to actually look at your car (even going as far as to ask you to take it apart for inspection). Most would think that I'm a jerk for doing all of that, yet, it appears to be necessary...

Of course if I beat them, I don't typically give a darn.

Another example of a weenie protest...

You notice a competitor drove their car to an event. You protest something in the engine (cam, piston dome height, cylinder head milling, etc). That means the engine gets torn down at the event and the part in question goes home with the SCCA. It also means that the driver of the protested car can't drive home....

Even though you know it's legal you protest it anyhow, you are forcing the protested driver to choose between walking home being disqualified.

That's a weenie protest.

As for the VW part in question, if the stock part hasn't failed yet, then it appears to be adequate for the job. Replace it and say nothing if you are 100% sure that it would not make a difference of mroe than 0.0004 seconds (less than the error in our timer), also include the possible "self confidence" factor that comes with knowing your car is more reliable.

Scott

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:59 pm

Ok, not specific to Chris and his part but regarding bend the rules via common agreement. I generally don't like the idea of the "if this is OK with everyone argument". If a number of those in the class is OK with it, then whoever is not and wants to "play strictly by the rules" ends up looking like they are making a "weenie" protest by saying "don't do it". Like they are spoiling all of the fun.

The rules are there to prevent this from happening. If we all just followed the rules we wouldn't run into these situations. It can also lead to bad feeling down the road. Especially if you start to wonder if you lost because of something you had previously OKed, or maybe you OKed at the time, but as time passed you became less and less OK with it, etc. I see no good outcome to going down this road.

Now onto Chris and his specific question...

Personally if the part in question has zero performance benefit and is just a stronger part, I am personally OK with it regardless of what the rules say. But when we start talking about "smoothing boost", I am thinking performance enhancement.

Chris and I work together, so I will have to drop by his workspace and make sure he knows I am not giving him a hard time here.

Beefer part or not, I expect he is going to kick my ass next year if I stay in STS and I don't change cars.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

I haven't read the whole thread, but I thought one thing needs clarification:

Fortunately for Kevin, no protests were filed during competition, so all of his results stand. No DQing after the fact.

Oh, and I bet there are far more people with "oh, it's just blah blah" rule-benders than those that are 100% squeaky clean. Far more. Fortunately most of these cheaters are still within what most would consider the spirit of the rules.

Have a nice day!

Kevin Allen · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm **Posts:** 3479

I understand the folks who are saying "It's not legal for your class, so don't do it." By following the rules, the car is either legal or it's not legal.

But I also understand that we're not running national events here, and there are only a few cars in the club that are prepared for national competition (and mine ain't one of 'em). I guess I'm just too new to this stuff to be sharing my opinions, and should sit in the corner and keep quiet.

edit:

Just wanted to make sure nobody thought I was mad or anything - this post sounded a little argumentative when I read it back.

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Diane Hall wrote:

The club has adopted the SCCA rule book. We should either follow it, or adopt a different set of rules. (Which in and of itself would be a nightmare... believe me, it's been discussed.)

Another item for clarification: We DO fully support the SCCA rulebook and we DO NOT write any rules exceptions (except for TIR, NOV, and PRO).

The ruleset is enforced by competitor protest at an event. THSCC does however have our own protest procedure, and part of that procedure is the officers deciding whether to uphold a protest or not. Weenie protests will not be upheld. It is up to the protest committee (senior officers) to decide whether something brought forward is in the "spirit of the rules". And we have no written rules for deciding that.

My question for Scott then is "what is a weenie protest and what is not, and how do the officers decide?". That's the big question here, I think.

Mike (who could probably find 90% of the cars at our events illegal if he looked hard enough)

Diane Hall · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 3:18 pm

MikeWhitney wrote:

I haven't read the whole thread, but I thought one thing needs clarification:

Fortunately for Kevin, no protests were filed during competition, so all of his results stand. No DQing after the fact.

Oh, and I bet there are far more people with "oh, it's just blah blah" rule-benders than those that are 100% squeaky clean. Far more. Fortunately most of these cheaters are still within what most would consider the spirit of the rules.

Have a nice day!

Yes, quite fortunately for Kevin, and probably other class winners, since nobody in their classes cared enough to protest them, it's OK in THSCC to break the rules. Well, at least that's the message we're sending.

And for me, I'm kind of outside the ring on this one since it's highly unlikely I'll ever get to run another THSCC autocross again. Nice to know that if I do, the membership would give me the choice to run my Miata in CS.

I will do my damdest to get off my soapbox now.

Diane

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 3:19 pm

MikeWhitney wrote:

Oh, and I bet there are far more people with "oh, it's just blah blah" rule-benders than those that are 100% squeaky clean. Far more. Fortunately most of these cheaters are still within what most would consider the spirit of the rules.

Let me be the first to say that I doubt my car is 100% legal due to a small amount of duct tape that is helping hold a plastic undertray to the front bumper. One of the the mounting holes has torn and the stock fastener no longer works. :wink:

Kevin Hoff · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 3:21 pm

On "national-level legality" Vs. "regional-level legality"

In my time autocrossing in the area I have heard/seen many people running illegal preparation of their cars at local events. Only once, at a "big" event, (NCAC) was there a protest. It was over a poorly written rule that reasonable competitors disagreed on. It turns out that there was a clarification in Sportscar then a rule change the next season as a direct result of that protest so it was _definitely_ not a weenie protest.

At the few National events I attended there was quite a bit of close inspection of the top cars and a few protests over what most would call trivial, but still performance enhancing, items.

Bottom line: Try to make your car legal for regional competition and don't do anything blatant. You'll be fine. For national level, if you think you might trophy, get the car 100% squeaky clean legal as it _will_ be closely checked by your competitors.

Getting a car 100% squeaky clean legal is a non-trivial task. The only car I've owned that I'm certain is absolutely legal for its class is the WRX in DS. Every other car I could pick and find questionable items, simply because I didn't own the car since new and couldn't 100% vouch for the quality of hidden repairs by previous owners and the like.

On the GTI turbo thing: think twice. People stress over turbo components as small, inobvious changes can give great power benefits.

Sorry to go so long...
--Kevin H.

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2003 3:29 pm

Kevin Allen wrote:

But I also understand that we're not running national events here, and there are only a few cars in the club that are prepared for national competition (and mine ain't one of 'em).

But you were not attempting to bring it up to a national level in STS. You knew that cause you read the rules. And a motor mount change is not a weenie protest. That modification was done for purely a performance advantage. By the way, January's Fasttrack addresses this issue.

As for what is a weenie protest, usually the person getting protested thinks it is a weenie protest. I would suggest a review of the SCCA protest rules. The protest committee has a broad range of leeway in doling out penalties.

Let's use Chris for example. He decides to replace the valve with an aftermarket one. He is protested:
1) It is determined that the valve is an OEM replacement and adds no performace benfit. The protest is denied.
2) The valve is an OEM replacement, it does smooth out the power band, thus improving low-end response. He is DSQ'd for that event.
3) Chris provides documentation stating this is a VW replacement part and it being so, it allowed. But the VW documentation is written on Chris Brown's personal letterhead. He would be DSQ'd and banded from competing.

I would hope that cheating is an exception in the club and not the rule of the club.

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