THSCC Forums

I didn't want to hijack the "SCCA Sucks" thread, so I'm starting my own. I've seen this $/min argument trotted out before and it's never rung true for me (note I say "for me"- otherwise I might be doing more track events). If you are primarily motivated by value for your driving dollar, I think you should consider just driving down the highway. Assuming 80mph, 30mpg and $2.50 gas, that works out to only $0.11/min. YMMV.

The arithmetic depends on the excitement/challenge/entertainment factor being the same. Obviously that's the standout difference in the highway example, and for me autocross and track are definitely not the same either. Autocross is a challenge and intense and may be slow but it seems fast, whereas track is kind of easy, gets really "same-y" after a couple sessions, and may be fast but it seems slow. I'm sure if I had a Corvette it would seem faster, but I can only talk about the Neon.

I think I've pushed the Neon about as hard as it'll go on track (and I think my instructors over the years will generally agree), but the fact is that about 60-70% of the time is spent with my foot to the floor, waiting for my next braking point. With only a few exceptions in my experience (the Spiral on VIR-S, uphill esses on VIR-F, Turn 3-4 (I think) at Road Atlanta, Turns 3-4 at Roebling) corners on track are not linked, so you basically have all the time you want to make sure you're lined up where you want to be.

When I tell track guys this they usually respond with, "yeah, now try it with 3 other cars beside you trying for the same bit of real estate". Well sure, but now we're not talking about the same thing anymore, and I don't think any wheel-to-wheel racers who keep track of their costs are going to trumpet their $/min advantage against autocrossers.

I think a better ratio to work out would be "fun/minute" or "challenge/minute". For a good, challenging autocross course, that number could be almost 1/1. Maybe even better, if you consider the minutes spent trying to figure out where to go faster. On the other hand, for a fast, challenging track like say, Summit Point, only turns 3, 5, and 10 (if I'm remembering right) and the braking zone into 1 really count as fun, for a fun-time to total-time ratio of maybe 0:15 to 1:37 (on cheap street tires), or about 22% fun. We can throw in a bit extra for all the other turns put together, so let's say 25%. VIR-F might be better, but I don't remember my lap times there. Maybe I'd like Patroit course a lot better by this measure- I'll have to try it and see.

So I guess most other people are having fun driving down the straightaways too, and/or just plain ol' grooving on the fact that they're at a racetrack, or something.

All IMHO, of course.

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Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531

What's fun?

Catching/passing/leaving that Porsche/M3/Mustang in your Sentra/Neon/Celica.

You're just wired differently than the rest......

All I know is, when its done right, at no time am I not having fun on track.

My point from the other thread is that they are both fun - but different. I can't count actual seat time as the deciding factor. Until and if I start time trialing (in the Miata I wouldn't need a stop watch, but a hourglass for VIRGE) there is not the competition in HPDE's that there is in AX.

I agree with Matt that the biggest fun is passing the BMW/Porsche/Mustang/etc in the Miata. I also agree that I am never NOT having fun on track. (well except when I was sliding toward the tire wall). But then again, I can't think of a time when I don't have fun at AX, even when I drive poorly.

Carl, many turns are linked even in "slow" cars. Mine is no faster than yours. I found out the hard way that if you are faster through 3-4 at Roebling you are faster through 5-5a, 6. (Why do I always learn things the hard way) Same with Road Atlanta from 1-5, they are linked. Straits are no challenge though just time to check gauges and rest.

I agree, my foot is on the floor pretty much of the time too, but in my admittedly limited experience, I don't get bored after several sessions. It may have to do with my learning curve, but I always am trying to improve what I am doing, my line, get smoother, not hit walls, catch the Mustang ahead of me. etc

First and foremost, there is NO competition in HPDE. The talk of catching BMW, Mustangs and Porsches (notice no mention of Camaros) beckons..."one time at band camp...."

I agree with Carl on HPDE's would become pretty boring, real quick at least for me.

I stood and watched the TT at Rockingham in 2005 and just knew I had to get out there. And the expense started to grow. Now my goal is the NASA Camaro Mustang Challenge for late 07, probably 08. And guess what, the cost is growing even more.

I love the competition. That is why I tackled the national and pro stuff within a year of AX.

I figure the cost of competing on track will equal the cost of competing at the national level AX. Why kid myself

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

You only say that because you have the fast car. there is always the personal satisfaction of knowing that you got the point by a faster car because you were the better driver. Besides, what's the matter with band camp? Many a tuba player lost their virginity at band camp.

I am going to experience my first HPDE in 2007, but from the outside looking in, I think there is also the "minutes driving/day" issue as well. I enjoy the blast that autocross provides, but unfortunatly it is about 5-6 minutes for an entire day.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Listen Jimbo, there's nothing wrong with bandcamp. And I never ever grow weary of passing Porsches (or Purple Camaros for that matter) in a 1991 Sentra.

As for no "competition" in HPDE, ride with Oscar once while Bowie's on track....

Yeah, so there what he said

cone shagging sucks. standing around all day for 4 minutes of driving (poorly i might add) is hard to rationalize some days. depending on who shows up to run, autoX is a social thing. it gets me out of the house.

on the other hand, i have gone to HPDE's where i knew no one and still had a blast. pushing the envelope, flogging the car & getting a little red mist appeals to me more than the thrill of competition. it is a natural trait for us "back-markers".

hpde is however way more expensive for me, as i can not rationalize spending 5K to make cones shudder. autoX pisses me off, and for that reason i will continue to flail at it for another season.

i would love to go wheel to wheel racing, but can't rationalize that expenditure. i would hate to say what i have in the BMW already.

so, i am with Mike on the Rally thing. OCS was big enough to almost feel like a real rally stage, and i have always been a back road madman with little regard for hardware or personal safety (at least in my younger days) so damn i might have to redirect my efforts. besides, Wellsboro ain't all that unfamiliar to me. i have to think SCCA Rally is the next big thing. maybe in 2008.

Sorry, Jim...I'm with Matt on this one. For every pass on a "faster" car that I've earned, I'll freely admit that a competetive urge fueled me.

With the RX-8, passes aren't quite so hard to come by as with the Miata, but I've had a few cars this year that I busted my butt to catch and pass, most notably a C5, an E46 M3, and an Elise.

To speak to Carl's original $/min of seat time discussion, it's a time management issue for me. My job requires me to plan my motorsports schedule months ahead of time - I'm sure this is fairly common. Not only do I have to negotiate with my boss for time off, I need to be able to justify the time with my significant other. If I'm going to go to that effort, I want as much seat time as I can get.

I've all but stopped autoxing since I moved up here. That's more of a social phenemenom, however. The car crowd I spend time with is more HPDE-centric. If/When I move back to NC, I'm sure I'll hit a few more autox's because of my friends.

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Tom Freeman
'98 M3/4/5 | '93 Spec3 325i | '12 TSX sport wagon | '03 Tahoe
Team Silver Bullets '91 240SX

The newb view point:
I remember playing "tag" in highschool, that is chasing each other on public roads. That was the most fun ever. As an adult I realize it was a VERY unsafe thing to do(It was still super fun)
I did some autocrossing(three times) and a rally cross(once). No roadcourse(But I have followed Cosby on the highway which pretty much maxed the Scirocco )
Rallycross is fun enough that I am trying to figure the money to build a swappable rally suspension and make some alignment tools. It has to be swappable because I also enjoy autocross. I really enjoy trying to push the car(and me) as hard as I can in both formats, I just wish both of them ran about five-ten minutes per run(And I could do a bunch of runs with time in the garage to change stuff). Autocross makes me want to try hillclimbs and rallycross makes me want to try stage rally. But I don't know about road course. The thought of lots of laps on the same route is good for finding my self in the car, but unless it was wheel to wheel I don't think I would find it that exciting(And wheel-wheel is way out of budget)
TSD gravel rallyes would be the stuff, but there is not enough gravel to hold one except, maybe, in (way) western NC.

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RedLanternRacing, builders of the fastest cars in last place.
Success is not an option.
1981 Scirocco, "Vera"

where i grew up Chuck, hillclimbs and apparently nowadays, Rally is quite popular.

there is nothing about track time that i find boring. it is a constant input vs outcome. laps are for patient people IMO. repetitive? yes it is. consistency however, is rewarded. is it my cup of tea? i wonder.

i have always thought i would like to road rally. i had a 78 mazda GLC back in the day that i used to like to run amok with on the high centered back roads of PA when i was younger.

back when i lived in FLA we used to play bumper tag. usually on the way from a party headed towards another party. impaired? usually. wise? never.

I think how you weigh in on HPDE depends on how you "grew up". My introduction to motorsports started with HPDE with a brief season or two of autocross interspersed. HPDE won out in the end. I guess it is the economist in me. A day is something I can't really buy more of...if I'm going to spend a day doing motorsports, I'd like to be behind the wheel as much as I can.

Even in my "stock" Miata, every minute out on track is harrowing, even having started out by driving the much faster RX-7, it really doesn't matter to me how fast I'm going. A day on the track is a day on the track. Heck, give me the slowest/crappiest rental sedan you could find (with an automatic transmission) and I'd still have fun. The idea is to come as close as possible to having a perfect lap for each lap during a session and well...most of us don't have Schuey's talent, so it's a never-ending pursuit providing you can insert enough coin to play.

Heck, at the PCA event this past weekend, the one time I ran with the "ludicrous speed" instructor group (GT3 cup cars, etc, etc), even though I was a moving chicane with the throttle buried (the speed differential was just a bit unnerving out there) I was still having a ball even with having to do some serious traffic management. I guess that's practice for running an enduro race in a slower car...since all sorts come out to play in those events.

OTOH, I had a great time at our Mazda club autocross a few weekends ago...but that was probably because I got upwards of 10 runs, so it felt like I got a "deal" on a decent amount of seat time for the day that I spent.

Haven't tried Rally or Rally-X or Club Racing. I think Club Racing is the next thing I'd like to try...once I figure out how to really pay for this bloody hobby instead of scraping by.

I guess what form of motorsports you like is sort of like the fact that we are a limited group of the population that has this interest...there's a niche for us among "the rest of them" and within our group there are individual niches.

Regards,
--Ashraf

Can't we all just get along?!

I'm with Ashraf... I think for most it comes down to what you were exposed to first, and additionally, how that first experience was.

My first exposure really to amature motorsports was hanging out at an autoX down in Charlotte with a Z buddy at the time who was driving. Thought it looked fun... but didn't especially like standing around and getting sunburnt for a few minutes of seat time.

Then I met John Downing... and his passion for the track schools got me out to Carolina Motorsports Park in AUGUST 2000 of all places and times.... AND driving a 3600lb automatic! Frankly, that was all she wrote.

I can definitely see pros and cons for both... and its been discussed, and will be discussed forever... even after we've run out of petrol.

The track program owes a lot to the autocross program... one of the biggest benefits of autocross is ease/cost of entry. That really can't be said about an HPDE... at least the cost aspect. It is a different experience... more of a time committment than anything else. $30 for one day is pretty easy to work out. $300 for a weekend or more is a LOT tougher.

At the same time... four or five non-competitive track events a year mixed with some autocrossing and rallycrossing in between can be a great mix for lots of people.

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Stacy King
Midlife Crisis Participant

I throughly enjoy autox, rallyx, and HPDE each is a motorsport form and each is different and yet has similarities. I can not recall a time on any track when I wasn't trying to go faster than the rest of the cars in my run group. Unlike auotx you know if your faster cause your passing them. I felt really good about passing that C6 at the Rock, I couldn't get him on the straights but I stayed close enough to pass him on the infield I didn't have to wait till the session was over to figure who and if I was faster than someone. I believe that if you can run in an HPDE and not try to pass the car in front of you and find it boring, you need to expend your efforts in another form of motorsport.
As far as cost effectiveness goes, don't even go there because thats not the point of all this. The real question is what price do you put on your own enjoyment and entertainment? We all do what we can afford and still gain the maximum enjoyment. My order of priorities is HPDE followed closly by AUTOX with RallyX pulling up the rear but gaining ground. None of them bore me. Maybe after a few years of this under my belt I'll have a different opinion. But for now thats my story and I'm sticken to it.

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2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2