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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:55 am 
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I throughly enjoy autox, rallyx, and HPDE each is a motorsport form and each is different and yet has similarities. I can not recall a time on any track when I wasn't trying to go faster than the rest of the cars in my run group. Unlike auotx you know if your faster cause your passing them. I felt really good about passing that C6 at the Rock, I couldn't get him on the straights but I stayed close enough to pass him on the infield :o I didn't have to wait till the session was over to figure who and if I was faster than someone. I believe that if you can run in an HPDE and not try to pass the car in front of you and find it boring, you need to expend your efforts in another form of motorsport.
As far as cost effectiveness goes, don't even go there because thats not the point of all this. The real question is what price do you put on your own enjoyment and entertainment? We all do what we can afford and still gain the maximum enjoyment. My order of priorities is HPDE followed closely by AUTOX with RallyX pulling up the rear but gaining ground. None of them bore me. Maybe after a few years of this under my belt I'll have a different opinion. But for now thats my story and I'm sticken to it. :shock: :shock:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:20 am 
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It's all about what you enjoy. None of them is "better" than the others, just different. Like we all have different favorite colors.

I started in AX, added HPDE, and now do W2W. All are fun. Still do all, but the main effort is a regional W2W season, with a THSCC HPDE and local NER autocrosses thrown in when they fit in the schedule. (HPDE up here is mostly during the week it seems.)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:02 am 
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Autocross is a good entry level motorsport. It has great competition and social aspects. You can spend as little or as much as you want and still have a blast. The challenge is to “get it right” with no practice in only 4-5 attempts which isn’t easy. I’ve enjoyed it very much, met a lot of great people, and wouldn't trade the experience for anything. When it’s all said and done, it’s just 3 minutes of driving. Without the social aspect, I’d never do another autocross.

For HPDE there maybe nothing to “win”, but like Matt said, passing much faster cars is very gratifying. Passing a Miata when you’re driving a Vette is no big deal. Passing a Vette when you’re driving a Miata certainly is to driver of the Miata. Catching and passing a Cobra with a Cavalier is far from boring. I will admit that I “looked” better in the lower groups by passing more cars. Once you move up the ladder it isn’t nearly as easy (ask Ryan) making even more gratifying when it happens. The challenge is to “get it right” lap after lap with consistency. Unless you’re Mr. Schumacher that isn’t easy either. I’ve never been “bored” on track, and IMO if you are, you’re either really good (like bowling a 300 EVERY game) or aren’t doing something right.

Different people have different views which are great. Carl said he was bored driving foot to the floor, but I am not. There’s no throttle modulation in most corners in a Cavalier. The only time there is modulation is when I’m fighting the understeer condition of my FWD. Driving the Holton CSP Miata with its mad-tite grip in AX isn’t nearly as difficult as the Cavalier is on track. It’s still quite a challenge to get the turns right with limited grip in my car which I find to be very enjoyable.

Now for rallycross, at present I can find no downside. There is lots of competition (unless you’re Kevin Allen) it’s fun, cheap, and requires little to no preparation time. It has the same social aspect as autocross, but a bit more laid back. If you have a suitable car, it’s hard to beat the cost vs. fun factor. If you don’t have a car, for less than the cost of one set of V700s you can buy one. We only paid $400 for the General Lei and he’s still a top contender after 3 years of 4 plus drivers per event of abuse.

Sometimes is nice to not have to choose. This year I ran a full AX, RX, and HPDE season. The wife could care less how much it costs, but she doesn’t like me being away from home so much. HPDE’s take up whole weekends not just a day and that isn’t cutting it with the boss. Each form of motorsport has it pros and cons. In the past I didn’t have to choose, so I could deal with either of each and it didn’t really matter. Enter 2007 and sadly, time to choose. :(

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:15 am 
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Vincent...

The trick is to get Sonya driving!!! :D

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:18 pm 
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I agree with Matt and others that catching and passing folks on track is fun- in fact, really, who's around you and the distance to your "prey" is really about the only thing that ever changes from lap to lap, making it the most interesting thing.

Vincent Keene wrote:
The challenge is to “get it right” lap after lap with consistency. Unless you’re Mr. Schumacher that isn’t easy either. I’ve never been “bored” on track, and IMO if you are, you’re either really good (like bowling a 300 EVERY game) or aren’t doing something right.

I can't say I hit every apex perfectly, but I honestly don't find it very difficult to run laps within a few tenths of each other for an entire session. I guess the trick is in those few tenths, and I just don't care that much. It's interesting that you compare track to bowling a perfect game- I've used that analogy as well, but in describing how repetitive (and ultimately dull) it is. Apologies to bowling fans out there.

Quote:
There’s no throttle modulation in most corners in a Cavalier. The only time there is modulation is when I’m fighting the understeer condition of my FWD.

Try coming in hot and left-foot trail-braking to get some rotation- that should fix your understeer and give you something different to do in a corner for a change. Good thing you already find the foot-to-the-floor part interesting cuz I can't help you with that. :-)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:13 pm 
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ChuckNelson wrote:
No roadcourse(But I have followed Cosby on the highway which pretty much maxed the Scirocco :) )


Now, just to make sure that everyone is aware that I was only slightly above the speed limit when he was following me! :lol:

The way you said it sounded like we were scootin around everyone. :twisted:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:29 pm 
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Stacy King wrote:
Vincent...

The trick is to get Sonya driving!!! :D


I had Larry Hamaker take her out for a session at Rockingham. Afterwards her statement was "Now I know why you enjoy this so much".

She would really like to try HPDE, but now she's going to school full time and her income is limited. When she graduates and can afford a car to track maybe she'll come with me.

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'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:51 pm 
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Stacy King wrote:
Can't we all just get along?! :D

.


No, now that motorsports activity is over, we have nothing better to do than pick fights on the forum :P :lol:

Bernie BAake wrote:
I throughly enjoy autox, rallyx, and HPDE each is a motorsport form and each is different and yet has similarities. I can not recall a time on any track when I wasn't trying to go faster than the rest of the cars in my run group. Unlike auotx you know if your faster cause your passing them.


This is me too, except I haven't tried RallyX yet

Rob


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:11 pm 
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Bernie Baake wrote:
Unlike auotx you know if your faster cause your passing them.


Actually, you have no idea if you are faster than they are. You have little or no clue as to their motivation when they are out there. Because I pass a Z06 on 540, does that make me and my truck faster than them? Do they even know you are "competing" with them?

In AX, you know exactly who you are faster than when the times are displayed :-) You may not like it, but it is there for all the world to see.

And if you and I would "compete" in HPDE, I would win every time that I started in front of you :lol:

From the competition standpoint, I think dollar for dollar they are equal. When you factor in car prep to compete on track for that seat time, AX is probably a bargain.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:21 pm 
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RobLupella wrote:
...I haven't tried RallyX yet.


Well c'mon out and give it a try! There are several people who offer co-drives each event. I'm sure Carl would let you drive the Neon just to "get the hook in you". You are welcome to drive the General *if* there is an event where all our drivers don't show. We have 5 now and that's as far as we want to go per event.

I had Randy set to come out, but then he asked a question that I didn't like my answer to. He asked "Would you be upset if I flipped your car?" Though some still think we don't care what happens to the General, we actually do. I wouldn't be happy if he did flip it, and neither would the RX VPs, so I decided to leave well enough alone.

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'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:37 pm 
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jimpastorius wrote:
Bernie Baake wrote:
Unlike auotx you know if your faster cause your passing them.


Actually, you have no idea if you are faster than they are. You have little or no clue as to their motivation when they are out there. Because I pass a Z06 on 540, does that make me and my truck faster than them? Do they even know you are "competing" with them?

In AX, you know exactly who you are faster than when the times are displayed :-) You may not like it, but it is there for all the world to see.

And if you and I would "compete" in HPDE, I would win every time that I started in front of you :lol:

From the competition standpoint, I think dollar for dollar they are equal. When you factor in car prep to compete on track for that seat time, AX is probably a bargain.


Jim's right... you really have no idea... and on one hand, that can be a plus. I'm sure its different for everyone, but depending on what class you run in, if your car is not competitive, at some point you have to ask yourself why am I doing it. HPDE on the other hand, there's no pressure. Plus... if competition is your thing, I think most would agree that wheel to wheel would be a goal, and there's no better way to get your feet wet than at an HPDE.

The 'competition' is all with yourself. And you can't discount the instruction you get at an HPDE either. I know there's some instruction at autocross if you know where/who to ask, but I can't imagine trying to instruct someone for 50-75 seconds without a chance to breath.

And since when is repetition a bad thing? Isn't that the point? What can you really learn from 10 or 12 'laps' on a course you'll never see again?

It comes down to this IMHO... Autocross is about getting the most out of a particular car in the shortest amount of time possible. Road Course is about learning the car, finding its limits gradually, learning every nuance of a particular circuit (and we're very lucky to have so many circuits to choose from within a relatively short distance), and finding your own limits.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:44 pm 
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jimpastorius wrote:

From the competition standpoint, I think dollar for dollar they are equal. When you factor in car prep to compete on track for that seat time, AX is probably a bargain.


Bingo. Granted, I spent $5-6k this year on Autocross, but I won $1380 in contingency money and I have trophies from every National event I attended except for the Peru ProSolo.

To say I competed against the top 38 drivers in the country and came out 5th is ok in my book :)

Now, if I were time trialing at the same level, it would be easily 2 to 3 times that cost, and I probably would have wadded up the car in the process :D - AB

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:14 pm 
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Stacy King wrote:
I'm sure its different for everyone, but depending on what class you run in, if your car is not competitive, at some point you have to ask yourself why am I doing it.


You mean I don't have a chance to beat Mark O'Dell in SPO? Damn, I need another car. :(

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'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:16 pm 
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Aaron Buckley wrote:
Now, if I were time trialing at the same level, it would be easily 2 to 3 times that cost, and I probably would have wadded up the car in the process :D - AB


How do you know this unless you try it? EDIT!! (the prep, not the wadding it up)

I'd venture to say that except for brake pads and gas money... car prep and maintainence is equal to, if not less than (depending on class) running a national level autocross campaign. Since except for NASA, there's not an established national level Time Trial series... your travel expenses would probably be cut in half (though you wouldn't really be able to say you competed against the best in the country... yet)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:34 pm 
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Stacy King wrote:
And since when is repetition a bad thing? Isn't that the point? What can you really learn from 10 or 12 'laps' on a course you'll never see again?

Wow. We really do think in different ways.

I'm trying to think of the best analogy to use to describe the difference. Maybe:
  • Practicing drawing one of those "you can be an artist" ducks over and over again, until you can draw it perfectly, versus practicing drawing something different all the time - which is likely to make you the better artist?
  • Practicing shooting a basketball from all over the court versus practicing only free throws- which would be more useful if you wanted to be a professional basketball player?
  • Doing a hundred different homework problems versus doing only 1 but checking your work 20 times - which is more likely to teach all the concepts you need to know?
I'm sure I can think of others, but you get the idea.

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