THSCC Forums

As we approach the time of year when the mysterious empowered ones decide on the next season’s classes, (zipping up flame retardant suit) I’ve decided to revisit *shudder* the Novice Class discussion.
While the decision should probably be one made by novices, the problem is that the Novices don’t know what they want until it’s too late. Like Yogi Berra said, “you don’t know what you don’t know.” Here’s what I think, being just one year out of Novice. Jim P. called us the “magnificent seven” last year. We were the 7 who stuck it out in Novice, working for a piece of the year end Novice action and trophies. Here’s where those 7 stand this year:
Bernie #1 HS
Steve Remchak #2 ASP
Rob Harvey #1 BSP (Winner, Novice Year End Trophy 2005)
Colin O’Connell #5 CSP
PJ Aspesi #2 STX
Dan Durusky #2 STU
Gwen #1 Ladies

It has been my observation, both watching and listening, that the “trophy twice or 5 events and you’re out” rule has left some of the novices feeling stranded. What happened? They didn’t feel ready to move into Open, so opted for Tire Class. Then, for whatever reasons, once in TIR, they tended to stick together, no longer seeking out help from our field of great drivers and teachers. Why? Because they’re no longer Novices. Or, who knows what reason. Anyway, they won’t have the experience, or time in TIR or Open to have any shot at a year end trophy. And, yes, trophies ARE important. I don’t care what anyone says, trophies are the carrot dangled on the end of the stick, the tangible pat on the back and the “good job” from (and in front of) our peers. Were it not so we wouldn’t be figuring points, asking WHEN the season standings would be posted, etc. Getting a piece of the action, and being the only girl to stick it out in Novice last year, really kept me in the game. I could quote several Noobs on this point but will choose one:



I WOULD PROPOSE: A year long Novice class with points and a year end trophy as in 2005, with one restriction…NO R-compound tires allowed in Novice. If Noobs want to compete all year, do so while learning the limits of their cars on street tires, and take PAX, which ever way it falls. In the end I think they’ll be better drivers, meet more good drivers by asking for advice, stay in and advance the program for others in the future. If they leave Novice for Open, TIR, etc., it’s their choice to opt out. If we choose this format, the seasoned members need to make our next “litter” of Noobs aware of season points and how to go after them.

PS
I get that many of the “old school” and advanced drivers are of the “no novice” persuasion. Back in the day they got thrown to the wolves early on, and that may be, in fact, why they are such good drivers to this day. However, we’re trying to promote the sport to new folks, so I think some kind of Novice class should be considered.

What do you think?

_________________
SCCA Solo Triad Award Recipient 2014
SCCA HSL National Champion 2012
SCCA DSL National Champion 2013
SCCA DSL National Champion 2014
NCR National Driver of the Year 2012
THSCC Heel of the Year 2011
Former Club Secretary
http://www.petscompanioninn.com

Bah what the heck I'll feed the flames:

I have no problem with year-long novice. If the rules are written as defined though, I have a nit to pick: If you ban R-comps from NOV you need to ban STS, STX, STT, and STU class as well, since those paxes have street tire performance built into them.

Allowing these classes punishes those who bring cars which can not be in a ST class in NOV.

Edit - and I suggested this once before - I think we should have two 1/2 year long novice classes. If you trophy in the first half of the year, you're out, if not you can stay in NOV for the 2nd half of the year.

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

OK, I'll bite too. I like the year-long novice idea. For folks that are truly novices there is the POTENTIAL for them to get a lot of instruction, competition and they are easy to find. I don't agree with the trophy out theory (whether it is a half or whole year) A novice may be the best of a bad lot so they trophy out or they may be good, but even most "good" novices can use instruction. Heck, by my driving lately I can There is nothing that keeps a novice who "graduates" from asking for help.

That said I like year long novice. I would also entertain the idea of doing away with NOV class and having novices run in their class. They can then be subdivided by someone who can manipulate a spreadsheet if AXware doesn't do it automagically.

I'm with Mike on the don't kick them out for R comps. Its their stupid fault if they want to stunt their learning curve by letting the tires make up for their mistakes.

You’ve raised a valid point. My intent was to “help” the novice to really get the feel of the car. I wasn't thinking about which classes are PAXed based on R compounds and which would be based on street. I know we were advised by many whose knowledge we valued to stay on street tires for the first year. But, Rob’s right too, if they want to jump onto R’s, oh well.

_________________
SCCA Solo Triad Award Recipient 2014
SCCA HSL National Champion 2012
SCCA DSL National Champion 2013
SCCA DSL National Champion 2014
NCR National Driver of the Year 2012
THSCC Heel of the Year 2011
Former Club Secretary
http://www.petscompanioninn.com

i do so love the off season. as i have produced massive amounts of windage on this topic i shall limit my current response to this. i am for a year long novice class.

Just get rid of the PAX system for NOV.

_________________
In need of car.

Just for NOV ?

Have a year long NOV season. This gives the new guy that is doing well(And making the commitment to the season) a chance to have his moment of glory. Limit the NOVs to one season, that way you eliminate the guys that want to sandbag for a hollow victory and plastic trophy.
I don't like PAX but how do you place guys in a bunch of very different cars against one another? A mediocre time in a Z06 is still going to be faster than the best time of a 240 Volvo wagon. There really is not another way to "compare" times*.



*Except, possibly, the CHUX system, I developed, based on dollar value of the car.

_________________
RedLanternRacing, builders of the fastest cars in last place.
Success is not an option.
1981 Scirocco, "Vera"

There are a number of good reasons for a year long novice class with a year end trophy.
1. It fosters competition among the novices.
This feeling has been stated by numerous noobs, at least they have a chance racing people who are at about the same experience level. Brice Johnson mentioned this in one of the threads as did Jeb Brookshire, I believe that Chuck Nelson also hinted around this subject.
2. It encourages the novice to attend at least six points autocrosses in hopes of the year end Trophy.
In the current system the novice that has placed three times in novice class then goes to a class where they have a snowballs chance in hell of placing that year. They automatically start in the classes three points autox’s behind.
3. It appears that more novices will stay and become active members with the YLNC.
I’m basing that on the results from the one YLNC that I was involved in.. so maybe its not totally accurate, but I think it is.
4. When you encourage the novice to attend more events they also become a more active member and they will interact with the experienced folks that they see around them at each event I know Gwen and I did as did Rob, PJ Dan, Cosby, Colin, Sean, and Steve, to name a few.

As for the few problems of R compound tires and the ST classes I believe that if your advanced enough to run R comps then you can go to the open classes, ST classes in novice can be equalized by moving them up to the next higher stock class this will negate any mods.that give the ST class cars advantage. Remember that this is only about ten percent of the equation the drivers ability is the major factor.

This club has done novice several different ways and I guess the question we all must ask ourselves is which way produced the most dedicated members? I believe it was the YLNC.

_________________
2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2

Mostly I agree, but R comps or no R comps you are still a novice, just one with more money to spend (waste) then someone with street rubber. Don't kick them out, embrace them and show them how to take advantage of their R's. When they then disregard your sage advice and flat spot the crap out of their $175 tires you will then be able to teach how to drive correctly on the set of 500 Treadwear A/S tires that came with the car when they bought it.

well Chuck, not to discount the "CHUX" system but have you looked at the PAX penalty a Z06 has vs say a stock Miata? given that a Z06 is way more product intensive and the driver levels are the same PAX will lend a hand to a more AutoX freindly vehicle in the Miata. could i drive a Miata any faster than i can a Corvette? probably not. this however has nothing to do with PAX. if anything PAX will reward the lower HP, unmodded vehicle first.

and honestly Bubba, i don't mean to jump you on this. but see us underendowed, overcompensating guido types have a chip whenever we are mentioned in conversation.

here is my take on the "PAX SUCKS, especially in NOV" thing. i finished DFL to superior drivers last season in YLN class. the results of this past season will weigh that out. and i spent a shit load of money on my vehicles. as i remember, earlier this season Chuck, that was a point of contention with you. at this level skill will outweigh budget any day of the week.

did Rob gain any advantage over PJ or Colin with R Comps in 05? if he did you don't hear them bitchin' about it. it just gave everyone more initiative to gun harder with what they brung.

dammit, and i swore to myself i wasn't going to get involved in this futile arguement. again.

Believe it or not I was complimenting PAX, in a backhanded way. It does make it more fair for the guy that has the Volvo (Or '53 Lada) as compared to just using raw times.

I did get "shocked" by PAX, amplified by reading zero rules. Altho since I have read them I see the DM cars I was classed with are actually IIRC a roadster class for two seaters with a min weight of 1500 pds. It does stick it to the budget tinker, but that is for another thread of flames.

_________________
RedLanternRacing, builders of the fastest cars in last place.
Success is not an option.
1981 Scirocco, "Vera"

I'll see you all on page four. :jackstand:

_________________
Has no responsibility whatsoever.

I know we've all heard the arguments for and against the YLN program but the real deal is not whether you or I are for the YLN, Its whether the novices are for it or not. All our good reasons are valueless unless the raw novice agrees with and likes them. It seems that this element has been overlooked... But I feel that the previous YLN class proves the point. The opinions of even the most experienced member, no matter how well they drive, is valueless if the novice does not relate to it. IE what the novice wants is what's right, no matter how off base it is.
PS. Steve I can run better times in the mini than the vette. How about them apples

_________________
2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2

it is skill baby, skill.

i need to dig out the Barbie Jeep.