No Pro, No TIR, Year Long Novice....??

Diane Hall · **Posted:** Tue Dec 09, 2003 1:08 pm

[quote="Matthew_Thomson]i.e. night events.. yes lets do all we can to maintain the club to a specific set of people (clique).. :thumbsup:

way to support fresh blood in this activity!![/quote]

Or... "What a great way to reward those old farts still busting their butts to put on great events on weekend days for anyone who wants to show up. Additionally, we can encourage newer folks to get more involved by allowing them to run these events too if they do more than show up and drive at the day events."

Does someone feel left out? If so, get involved. Officer of THSCC are always looking for new people who want to contribute. Just talk to someone about it?

The club has grown more than I would have though possible in the 7 years I've been around it. Heck, the last few autocrosses there were many more people I didn't know/recognize than people I did. I remember when 10 people in Novice was HUGE. Now 30 to 40 is the norm. If that's not "fresh blood", I don't know what is.

Diane

Matthew_Thomson · **Posted:** Tue Dec 09, 2003 1:57 pm

my comment was targeted more at kevins comment than the night events.. and so that you know i believe i AM eligible for the night events for helping out at the last event and maybe from working at the viper school.. i've also offered to drive the bus.. i dont feel left out at all because i'm choosing to not attend the events even though i am making an attempt to get involved..

it also seems to me that the people who are "busting their butts" are doing so all the time such that additional help is often denied.. which has been brought up before.

Diane Hall · **Posted:** Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:08 pm

Sorry for the misinterpretation. I know the help you've given is appreciated.

I know it's been brought up that "help is turned down"... And I know in the past I've turned down help when things are really busy getting an event going because quite frankly it'll take longer for me to train someone to do it sometimes than it would for me to just do it. Timing is everything. Offer to learn when someone's not stressed out trying to get something set up or done on a tight timeline. E-mail the person responsible between events about a good time to learn something about X, whether X is timing software, timer display, course design, bus packing, etc. Just a thought.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Tue Dec 09, 2003 4:06 pm

Keith Quistorff wrote:

A lot of good points/counterpoints here, excellent discussion!....

....PAX is developed from results of specific events, those where the cars are prepped to the extent of the rules on the best rubber, and top level drivers understand the best set ups for their driving style, course conditions, etc. The typical "local" driver, however, will have a much better PAX result in a lower PAX car than a higher PAX car. For example, when I ran in GS a couple years ago w/my E36 325is, I consistently finished in Top Ten PAX at our events. Now that I'm running in SM w/my E36 M3, I only finish in Top Ten PAX on rare occasion. The two cars are very similar, same body, etc., and I'm very confident my driving has improved. But it's obvious it hasn't improved to anywhere near the "national" level, hence my lower PAX Index results.

From this standpoint, I agree with eliminating PAX classes....

Keith, I agree. It is an excellent discussion. But I am curious about something….

I have heard the theory about how it is easier to place higher in the results with lower PAX cars. And I even remember hearing an explanation that I could agree with! But I can't remember what that explanation/logic was. So I am not sure if I follow your example.

I have no idea how competitive an E36 325is was in GS or your current E36 M3 is in SM or what the prep level is/was for both. But could it be that the prep level of that car in GS was closer to the max for GS than your current E36 M3 is in SM? So if the GS car was at a higher prep level you should have placed higher? Also if it has been a few years ago, I don’t know if you can easily compare PAX results when I would expect that a good deal has changed between seasons. Last season I was 2nd in STS. This season with better driving (I think) and slightly better prep level in the same car I was 6th. So competition level can change pretty quickly even without throwing a change of car and class into the mix.

If I was to personally try to come up with a way to support the theory that lower PAX for the typical driver causes higher PAXed results, I would say that classes with a lower PAX contain cars that are just inherently slower (duh!). Things happen faster with faster cars. The limits are higher; elements come at you faster; the penalty for screwing up can be more serious; etc. I would say it probably is just much harder to drive a high PAX car at the limit of its ability. I expect that there may not be as huge of a time difference between an “average” and “top” driver in a low PAX car. I would however expect a larger time difference between an “average” and “top” driver in a high PAX car. So if you are not a national level driver, a high PAX car would be hurting you more than a low PAX car would.

I am not personally sold on the theory yet, but I can see that it might be true.

On top of that we don't even talk about how the TIR people get the shaft when it comes to overall PAX results. So lets say you were a top driver in an *SP car, but was using street tires in TIR class. You might be able to rule PAX and your open class if you ran "R" tires, but with your street tires you are NOT going to place as high in the overall PAX results as you should. Basically TIR participants just filter towardt he bottom in the overall PAX results.

Ok, now the following is not directed at Keith at all, but is just a new conversation item to piggy back on top of the theory that Keith mentions above. And that is the validity of PAX and the impact of the above theory (assuming it is true)….

Does it even matter if average drivers place higher locally if they drive lower PAXed cars? It only would if you care about PAX results. If you care about PAX results and you end up getting placed lower than someone that you feel is not as good as you because of the above theory, well then you just need to make some type of change. Either you stop caring about placing lower in the PAX results and focus on your open class performance. Or you play to win PAX style. You stop driving your high PAX car and buy and prep a PAX winning car!

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Tue Dec 09, 2003 4:31 pm

Richard Casto wrote:

If I was to personally try to come up with a way to support the theory that lower PAX for the typical driver causes higher PAXed results, I would say that classes with a lower PAX contain cars that are just inherently slower (duh!). Things happen faster with faster cars. The limits are higher; elements come at you faster; the penalty for screwing up can be more serious; etc. I would say it probably is just much harder to drive a high PAX car at the limit of its ability. I expect that there may not be as huge of a time difference between an “average” and “top” driver in a low PAX car. I would however expect a larger time difference between an “average” and “top” driver in a high PAX car. So if you are not a national level driver, a high PAX car would be hurting you more than a low PAX car would.

I am not personally sold on the theory yet, but I can see that it might be true.

Geez Richard you cover a lot of ground. First, it is pretty easy to prep a car to National standards in the Stock class. Thus any stock class car has the ability to run closer to their PAX. Using the MR2 for example: a sway bar, single adjustable shocks and light weight wheels put make it a fairly competitive national car (the driver is holding it back). It becomes very expensive to prep an SP car to national levels. Ever see a true SP national car? They ain't even close to road worthy. And do not even go into national level SM cars. Those things are mega-bucks and major time.

There are no real SM cars in the area to compare. But in Virginia there are a couple running (Katana and Baker). Compare their cars to Keith's and you will see the difference. Compare the Frank's Celica (a national winner) to other Celicas in the area. The difference is not as great.

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