THSCC Forums

*shrug*
sure, sounds good to me.
I don't think I'll be back from portland until next season, so someone can mark my vote as in agreement with whatever makes it easier to run the event.

Well, I'm still against the idea of changing anything, but I don't have any new groundbreaking arguments that are different from what was said before. I will add that it is cool to have a class that I can bring the 928 to (which I don't have another set of rims for) when the Supra is busted and still have a chance of competing. I also don't think that taking trophies away will discourage competition in TIR class. It's not like people are going to say "there are no trophies, so I'm not going to try." I guess taking away the year-end trophy would encourage more people to eventually switch over to Open, but I still think TIR is a fun class the way it is and don't see how forcing people to Open solves anything. Moving all the TIR people to Open just gives the Open drivers someone to beat up on (whether it be because of a lack of skill or lack of race tires). So now they have to buy another set of rims and race tires to compete. TIR is a good class for fun competition on the cheap...

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Jonathan
'86.5 Toyota Supra
'89 Porsche 928 GT

This probably won't fix the problem and I am sure a bunch of the people who run Street Tire would just run STS and now we still have a bunch of empty pro classes. I still don't see why were are trying to eliminate our largest class, every one assumes that if tire goes away every one will just up and run open, but I belive we are assuming a lot. What we should be doing is leave it as is and encourage people to move to open, and encourage them to go to national events to become better autocrossers. However there are going to be some people who do not want to do that and forcing them to move to an open class when they really do not want to go any further than having fun with tarheel. They guys who are changin tires at events are the ones we should be encourage to go to open, they guy show may run the occasonal track event or autocross who buy aziens because they are the cheapest gripest tire for both should both not be pused into a class he does not want to be in.

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

This appears to be comparable to the same proposals we already addressed in some form or another in a couple of other 10 page threads.

Ironically, if it were up to me, we would probably have *another* TIRE class that is based on index.

Pretty much:

Stock-Tire, everything else-tire.

Hmm, I smell another poll and long thread coming on...

Scott

Fewer drivers = more runs for the rest of us...

I've decided that I really don't care what we end up with, as long as I still get a good quantity of "driving all crazy and stuff." I've only been around for a year and a half, so I don't have the experience with different class structures to really know what works the best as far as timing/scoring, registration, making people happy, etc. I have no problem (personally) with the way things are run right now. I also have no problem with the way things are run by VMSC (all runs at once, no TIR class, etc.) or SCCA (Subaru Challenge events). As long as there are rules that don't accomodate everybody's individual preferences, somebody's going to be unhappy.

I would like to see certain people move willingly into the open classes and move up in the rankings, but that's just my personal opinion. When I was booted out of Novice class, I went to STS - because certain people explained to me that it was where my car would fit the best. If STS wasn't available, I might've run TIR at first. But once I got pretty good at driving the car, I would've gone to Open, and of course bought race tires. If there were no TIR or ST classes, and the system was set up to send you from Novice straight to Open (DSP in my case), I would've gone willingly. I got my butt kicked in STS at first, and I kept coming back. Wouldn't have been any different in DSP.

I'll say it again, if you're a competitive person, you'll do what you have to do to win. But if you're not a competitive person, it doesn't really matter what class you run, does it?

Peace and love,

Kevin Allen

I still don't understand what is the underlying issue here (I get bored reading 10 pages of posts and since we already run in open didn't have an iron in the fire about street tires) that is trying to be "fixed"?
To me the only thing that pushing people running street tires into open will really accomplish is to add cannon fodder to the classes so those already running open and consistantly finishing just out of trophies will be able to take home wood.
Personally I think that the way things are done now: classes, A-B grid, split runs, trophies, etc. works efficently, makes the majority happy (the only complaint I hear regularly is non-members complaining they can't get into one of our events except on the waiting list), and makes Tarheel's events some of the best. Why is there such a push then by a couple of people to change what ain't broke? Miles said in his grid post we should look at what is best for the majority, I agree. Right now the street tire class IS that majority. They have already voted with their entry fees, if they wanted to be in open that's where they would have registered.
The only suggestion that has any merit of positive improvement in my mind is to make novice a season long class with a rookie of the year award at the end.

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SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.

Chuck - if you read any of my responses to the 10-page post I clearly explain what is "broken" in my opinion. Class sizes and loss of original intent of TIR.



On the contrary, most of the top finishers in TIR would have done QUITE WELL in open classes. Look at what DS did this year. Those guys running street tires in DS open made a lot of people who bought race tires wonder why they spent all that money.

Mike <- just repeating things he has been saying over and over trying to get people to "see the light"

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

I think this is Whitney's real point---
The real debate is this-

Do you want to build a club based on pax competition? OR do you want to build a club based on open class competition?

We cannot have deep open classes and have 70 cars in pax classes at every event (PRO, TIR, and NOV). It just doesn't work out. We cannot have it both ways. We will either continue to grow TIR class at the expense of open, or we can abolish the PAX classes and build open. And yes, I'd even be in favor of eliminating NOV as a class and put those cars in open. I would still keep the "N" on the car like we used to do so we can tell who the novices are, but I'm fine with putting them in open classes.

I think PAX vs OPEN issue is a discussion worth having because it determines the character of our club, the level and type of competition, and it even impacts the social and learning environment we create.

We have reached a point where in general, we have created a self perpetuating situation. People don't run in "Blink Stock" or "Z-prepared" because there are no cars in that class. So, they go to PRO or TIR. And so it continues.

If we want a PAX based club, then fine, that's what we've got now and are growing into more so...... One problem with that is that I do not believe the pax creates a level playing field. If you do, then we can save that for an entirely separate debate!

If we want to build a club where people with cars in the same class can compete against each other straight up with decent depth, then we do have to make some changes.

I'll admit it took me awhile to see Whitney's point. You really have to step back and look at how this issue affects the club as a whole. And it affects, or has the potential to affect, every person in every class in some way. I would not expect people who have been around for only a year or two to really grasp the implications of this. It is more of a club management issue than anything else.

I looked at one event last year and we had 75 cars in PAX classes. In general, it would have really strengthened our overall class depth and competition to have those 75 cars in open classes. I looked at several events from last year and it seems common for PAX class entrants to make up almost half of our total entries.

Is this really what's best for our club overall in future years? You may think so, but I really do not believe it is.

By the way, I'm not arguing with anybody. I appreciate the free exchange of ideas and a clean debate. We all seem to be pretty civilized on this forum and I've enjoyed reading the posts- even the ten page tire debate.

Miles

Are we assuming that if we eliminate Tire that people will go strait to Open/non pax class's correct? I think most people will go to STS which while that is an open non pax class, it seems that we haven't fixed anything just broken something else.

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

OK, I confess to being mioptic since GS open is usually a fairly large class with good competition, and we've never run in TIR, even at the events where we put Azenis on the car. I don't really pay much mind to the other classes except to look at the event overall index order since that is usually a better indicator to me than class finish. By default we would be on the side of creating strong competition to run against, the very reason we run in National events.
Anyone who is of the opinion that Pax classes are easier than open classes has never seen the fierce and deep battles in L-1 and L-2 at Prosolos. Since no matter what the decision we will be running in open again next season, I'll bow back out and let who it concerns continue to discuss.

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SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.

I think the main point the people who are in favour of eliminating the PAX classes are missing is that, these classes were created to fill a need. If we get rid of them that need will no longer be filled.

TIR class was created to give folks with streets a more competitive place to run.

PRO class was created to give a) faster folks a place to compete against each other and b) visiting "fast" guys a place to run without messing up season points.

If we eliminated these classes the net gain would probably be zero. One group of people would be happier, another group would be upset. Things wouldn't be better just different.

We had this discussion at the start of 2003 and in my mind I thought we should let people vote by what class they choose to run. Well they did and lots of people like TIR and PRO. Don't ask me why people like them but they do. Honestly, I have yet to hear one complaint from someone who ran in TIR this year.

So for 2004 I'd say if you don't like these classes don't run in them. It's as simple as that. If there are only 2 folks in PRO and 4 in TIR then I could see a good reason for eliminating them, but as it sits now, I see no urgent need to do anything???

Shawn

Coming from someone who started as a Novice just this past season...
I looked at my options and decided I would rather compete in an open class. I still ran on street tires, because cost was still an issue. That's not even taking into account my inexperience and the amount I still have to learn. I knew I wouldn't be competitive any time soon, but it honestly made more sense to run in the open class so that I focused my energies in what I felt like was the right direction...
My take on the TIR class was that it's going to be alot harder for it to be an even playing field than the open classes. And even the open classes will never be perfect....but it's simply a fact of limiting the number of variables.
TIR class takes all the imperfections of each class into it when trying to create relationships between them.

I wonder how many people originally started in tir because someone told them they should run in it because they wouldn't be competitive in an open class. I really think these people would be fine as long as they had enough people in the open classes with them to compete with. Getting a piece of wood to take home would be nice, but having a healthy amount of competition seems to me like it'd be the main attraction. As it is...I gauged my cars level of prep vs. the other cars, and tried to narrow the gap between myself and those faster by learning. So...even if I didn't have a "close" competitor...I found competition and will continue to do so (in the open class) if the TIR class does stick around. I'm not of the opinion that it should be dropped against the wishes of the majority, but I would like the opportunity to convince them that it is a good move. This wasn't something I initially realized either...when I first heard the suggestion (The night I submitted my application for the club), I didn't think it was such a great idea....

but as you can see...I've got a few more thoughts on it now...

I hate to bring it up again since it seemed to fall on deaf ears when I posted this earlier. Why do we have to be one or the other? Why can't we do both (with a slight lean toward open class)?

Basically this is the idea of having EVERYONE run open class, but also publish and give trophies for PAXed results. No Pro class anymore. One PAX results for everyone (like we do now) and one for TIR (using existing or modified TIR rules).

We would run open class numbers on the cars. Basically the PAXed results/trophies is just a bonus above and beyond the open class result/trophies. TIR folks should remain happy and open class competition should increase.

I saw some complaints and/or comments about giving trophies for PAX results (i.e. it is a bad thing). I am curious why that would be so. Does it hurt to give out trophies for both open class and PAXed classes?

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

A lot of good points/counterpoints here, excellent discussion!

Here's my $.02:

Although it's unlikely to have much, if any, effect on the class I run in (not many SM cars in Street Tire), I agree with Miles' "top down" view about the benefits of encouraging competitors to run in their open class.

I'm 100% convinced that ranking by PAX result (Street Tire class) does not level the playing field as well as most people think. PAX is developed from results of specific events, those where the cars are prepped to the extent of the rules on the best rubber, and top level drivers understand the best set ups for their driving style, course conditions, etc. The typical "local" driver, however, will have a much better PAX result in a lower PAX car than a higher PAX car. For example, when I ran in GS a couple years ago w/my E36 325is, I consistently finished in Top Ten PAX at our events. Now that I'm running in SM w/my E36 M3, I only finish in Top Ten PAX on rare occasion. The two cars are very similar, same body, etc., and I'm very confident my driving has improved. But it's obvious it hasn't improved to anywhere near the "national" level, hence my lower PAX Index results.

From this standpoint, I agree with eliminating PAX classes. Classing two drivers in same-class cars w/different levels of tire performance (R vs. street) seems easier to draw comparisons from than separating those drivers into different classes. Heck, anyone that's so competitive to buy a set of the best "street tire" rubber for autocrossing will surely choose to spend a few extra bucks for R compound tires the next time, just for the sake of better competition. And better competition is what this thread is all about.

The argument that the poor guy running his plain old daily street tires no longer being competitive is no argument at all - that guy is obviously not hell bent on being competitive, he's participating for fun only and will be there no matter what class he's put into.

Yes, there was a void/need that Street Tire class filled, but the landscape has changed a lot since then, and Street Tire class has become less what was originally intended.

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Keith Q.
2008 Top Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmX8XuZ_DCo&NR=1

i.e. night events.. yes lets do all we can to maintain the club to a specific set of people (clique).. way to support fresh blood in this activity!!

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'88 bmw 535is
'98 honda civic ex