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What does "turn in early" mean in the context of autocrossing? I'm familiar with "late apex", "early apex", and "stay on the backside of the cones" but have never heard the term "turn in early". If it is another way of saying "early apex" I'm confused since very few autocross corners are early apex . . . at least the way I define early apex.

As part of the explanation some idea (if it isn't obvious) of what "turn in early" accomplishes would help.

Thanks!

Dick (old guy trying to keep up with the times )

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

i use that term in the same context as "stay on the backside of the cones"...the idea mainly being, don't turn late

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05 MCS

its especially helpful in slolums.. turn early to keep ahead of the cones/rhythm so you don't get behind and start plowing into them

Don't know if that is right, but that is how I look at the "turn in early". I view it more and "start the turn earlier than you think you need". For me, this helps me get a better rhythm. Maybe it is a way to deal with the delay between seeing where you are, perceiving this, making a decision (turn damnit!!) and then telling your body to do something and then the car reacting to your input. So start my turn earlier than I think and by the time it actually happens, it will have happened when it should have happened and I will not be behind on the slalom.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
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OK. Based on the responses so far it sounds like another way of saying to late apex and stay on the backside of the apex cones (which includes most slalom cones) AND be sure to be very close to the apex cone. If my understanding of the goal of "turn early" is correct it matches exactly what I have been doing for decades. In many situations, including slaloms and lane changes, turning early is absolutely essential to being able to late apex and be on the backside of the next apex/slalom cone. The hard part is avoiding turning so early that you clip the cone with the inside rear as you pass it. That is called being too greedy.

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

I think the idea of "turn early" goes along with "turn less". The goal being to maximize the radius of your turn and therefore lose the least speed. A picture would be helpful, but I don't have time now to make one. But if you draw a slalom, for example, and draw 2 paths through it - 1 tight and 1 maximizing the radius of the turns - you can see that a driver on the 2nd line will have to start their turn earlier to follow the smoother arc.

Calling Eric Peterson...

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Carl Fisher

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It's kind of late, so I'll try to throw my 2 cents in quickly. I'm certain that I'm guilty of using the term "turn in early." I usually use the phrase "turn early and turn less) when somebody is turning in too late and thus giving too much sterring input at one time. I stole the term from Jonathan Roberts. As we all know, turning in too late is one of most common problems in autocross (especially one of my problems). Techincally speaking, it's just a phrase or trick to help folks to turn in at the appropriate place. I'm sure there's a better way to communicate it, but that's been my default for a while.

When Donnie, Chris, and I co-drove the black Spyder in 2003. They'd often drive first and come back in to tell me the car was pushing like a dump truck. I'd get in and find that it was loose or close to perfect. The reason for the difference was that they were turning in too late. We'd often use the term "turn early and turn less" as one of our mantras to help them make the necessary corrections and they would be fine. The other mantra was "get off the damn brakes." One of the many benefits of co-driving is that it's often easy to figure out what you are doing right or wrong by sharing information with their co-drivers. If you and your co-driver(s) have a good communication system it can be a big advantage, especially in a sport where you often only get 3 cracks at a course.

I'd be very interested to hear how other folks communicate the same principle.

Eric

My mantra (ask anyone who has been a student of mine or asked for advice!) is "NEVER STOP TURNING". The "turn early" is the result of this -- always setting up for the next turn means that a wider entry can be made, thus starting the turn early.

I do take it to extremes, I find that I'm turning in places that NO one else that I watch is.

This is unconventional, I know, but it works for me. If I have an extra 6" of pavement available to set up for the next turn, I use it. And I turn earlier

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

While obviously recognizing the importance of starting the turn early and using as little steering imput as possible, I often find that I struggle with the trade-off between using all of the pavement and running a longer distance than necessary. Suggestions on how to demystify my dilemma?

Dick, From a previous post, here's why I use the term "turn early"...

"... my opinion would be that "turn early" is always good general advice regardless of vehicle type. The main reason being, no matter what they're driving, "normal" drivers can't react nearly as quickly as they can think; meaning, by the time I can react to thinking "I should turn here", "here" is now behind me. How early just takes some (much/never-ending ) practice."



You've just never driven a Neon.

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When I'm coaching green students or folks who seem to always have trouble "getting behind" in slolams, I use the term "Turn Early", but embelish it by saying, "Try to run over the cone with your inside rear wheel! Betchucan'tdoit!"

This only works, of course, if the student has managed to begin carrying at least some speed...

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Brad

Again, I'm a little contrary. I almost always use extra pavement to set up for the next element. And I almost always seem to get faster.

Got a specific example?

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

No Mike, no specific example. It's just when I'm doing my preparatory course walks, I often find myself wondering how much wider do I swing my approach in order to require less steering input/carry more speed versus how much more distance will I have to cover if I do this.

It would be interesting at some future test-n-tune to have a short segment timer set up to measure just this. Drivers could try different lines and the segment timer could show the difference. A time for a whole course often doesn't show the difference because there can be so many other variables.

I agree with Mike.

I can think of one on the Greenville course for the folks who were there. Coming back through the double cones coming out of the "figure eight" (sorry Wes ), I found that instead of shooting directly for the lane change, it was quicker to sweep into it turning the car before entering the first set of cones to get lined up for the nasty lane change to the left.

In other words, if you shot a straight line from the double cones to the first section of the lane change, you'd be s.o.l. because you were turning too late to set up for the abrupt shift to the left thereafter IMO.

Good example Matt. Sweeping wide certainly helped there. But how far do you carry the concept? how much wider do you sweep the entry?