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For me that's something I have to kind of tune in based on the surface and how much tire you have left. I think it would be different for every car based on the amount of traction or how much they slide.

I'm starting to realize that the faster you go, the more you have to almost guess when to turn based on how much you think the car will slide around the cone; you don't want to overshoot it, but you don't want to cream it.

Rick, this probably won't help much, but I'll give it a try. In autocross you generally want to drive the tightest possible line without pinching yourself off on corner or feature exit. John Ames, who's one of the greatest autocrossers of all time, told Tim Aro that the way he drove a 180 was to go in wide, come out wide, and he didn't care what happened between. I'm similiar in my approach.

In features where I'm not sure what I want to do, I go through the following exercise... The way I figure out the line (how tight or wide) I want to drive is to look at the exit of a feature to determine where I want the car to be (i.e., location and angle/attitude). Once I determine that I want the car at position x and angle/attitude y at exit, then I go back to the begining of the feature and figure out how to get to x and y. Like Ames, I don't worry much about what happens between entry and exit. If you're looking & thinking ahead it usually takes care of itself. It's easy to overthink features when you are driving. Having fewer things to think about when you are driving makes it easier and your times faster.

The other part of the answer to your question comes with lots of seat time. After a while you can just look at a feature during a course walk and know where to go. Same thing happens in the car during the run, it's sort of like muscle memory...you find yourself in a situation on course, then pull out the response from your library of experiences - it just happens automatically. It's pretty cool when that happens.

Unfortunately, my library is full of really stupid stuff that I've done, but every once in a while something good comes out. This starts getting into the sport psychology aspect of racing where you learn to "trust" yourself, let it happen, and don't over think it. The best book on sport psychology IMO, and I've read a bunch of them, is Thinking Body, Dancing Mind. It also addresses examples for business and life. The first 2/3rds of the book is outstanding, the last 1/3rd is OK. The mental aspect of racing is equally as important as the technical.

There's no right way to figure out how tight/wide a line to run, you just have to figure out what works best for you. I agree with Mike's approach of making sure you are setting yourself up. Most people don't use the available real estate to "setup" a corner and subsequently drive right at the feature, then find themselves pinched off.

Eric

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. Just another of the many areas where I need to improve.

Using what Eric said (which is spot on), where do you want to exit the first lane change element? Then you would work backwards. Working backwards will take you all the way to the top of the figure 8. Yea, to get the right line and shortest distance, that is how back you would have to go.

Kind of different that the normal point and shoot courses.

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Now I know one reason why Mike Whitney is so fast. He actually does what I've been preaching and trying to do for 3 decades. As far as the limit of how wide to go, on many courses it will be the clean side of the "marbles". (I spun once at Rocky Mount because I went too wide). Whenever possible I check the pavement on dirty sites just before I run to find the "I want to be for late apex) places to stay away from.

Another possible John Ames quote is "late apex as early as possible". However for most autocrossers we are better off changing that to "late apex as LATE as possible". You always want the option of being hard on the gas when you pass the apex. Cannot do that if the front tires still have lots of steering angle. You should try to NEVER have to worry about hitting the next slalom cone with the front of the car!

On clean sites you will easily find if you went too wide since it will be too easy to set up for the next corner. When that happens you just don't have to swing out so far next run.

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Unfortunately, the turn early/turn less thing is extremely important in rallycrossing. So now that Mike has a Subaru and rally tires...

This is a very helpful bit too - many times I've walked a course and made a plan of attack only to end up in trouble because all the point and shoot drivers have laid a bunch of sand and marbles on the parts of the course I want to use.

--Kevin H.

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2003 WRX (again!)

I think it's fun to drag dirt onto KH's line.

PS - you're a rallycrosser, you shouldn't have a problem with that.

But when do you turn in on street tires?

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

I had a big eye-opener moment one time a few years back riding with Shawn in his Type R. I was just *amazed* that he drove his car at 100% cornering traction ALL THE TIME. He was literally always on the tire's max traction. I realized that was because he was always turning -- always holding a turn longer and then QUICKLY transitioning to the next turn. That "aha" ride-along I had with him pretty much shaped my current strategy.

I bring this up because I have been thinking about Rick's questions and found I was having trouble answering them. So to the general question "how much do I use the available space to widen my entry?", my answer is "up to the point of maximum available traction". So if a tighter line is *possible* at 100% cornering traction, without affecting your line into the next element, use it (ie turnarounds). But during transitional elements or shallower corners, use 100% cornering traction at all times. If you're tracking out of an element and heading towards the next one and are not "slipping" the tires, turn the "straight" into an S-turn.

People who ride with me often comment on how "exaggerated" my line seems -- cause I'm turning behind cones all over the place even when it doesn't seem necessary.

That's what I do. But as I have said before, I don't have all the answers, just what works for me.

Sorry if this explanation is confusing. I'm having a bit of trouble describing it. I have always found it easier to demonstrate than explain.

Edit: I'd like to further explain my personal mantra for defining my stratrgy. This all happens during my coursewalks --

1. Do absolutely anything necessary to be on the throttle 1 foot or 6 inches or 1 inch earlier in a turn than everyone else
2. Absolutely positively get the car set up to go FAST in the FAST parts (IMO this is where local events are won and lost)
3. Understeer in the slow parts is THE ENEMY
4. Never stop turning

It's all about #1 really. Early and full throttle. All the concepts and techniques I use revolve around that goal. It's like the holy grail, and I'll do anything to achieve it.

So that's all strategy. Once I'm driving there are only 2 things on my mind: (1) Get on the throttle NOW NOW NOW, and (2) Look ahead.

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

That's pretty much what I do at rallycrosses. Lately I just play around and try to be as sideways as possible through most of the course at autoxes, so I don't have much to say about that. But I never stop turning!

Pay attention when you're autoxing and notice whether you're making big, sudden steering inputs (especially after having the steering wheel basically centered for a couple of seconds). If you are, you're killing your time. You should be really smooth, with very minor corrections as you go slightly past the 100% grip level here & there. At rallyxes, you should be doing whatever it takes to start the car rotating (lifting, braking, pitching, etc.) and then sawing at the steering wheel very slightly to keep it going in the direction it needs to go - but as soon as the car turns in, you should be back on the throttle.

When we went to Oakland Acres for the SCCA rallycross, I had lots of people ask me how I could be so fast when I looked so slow/ looked like I was out on a Sunday drive/ looked so relaxed that I might fall asleep at the wheel/ etc. etc. etc. My reply was that every time you do something that "looks fast" you add a few tenths (at least) to your perfect time. And that I could do the stuff that looks fast, because I do it all the time when I'm playing around at home - but I was there to win, not to look fast.

verrryy interesting. i've always had a 'distance over speed' vs. 'get set up nicely for the next element' conflict in my head. so it was generally a compromise. id try to set up for the next element, but i wouldnt make it TOO easy because then i thought i was out in the daisies eating too much distance.

hrmm next time i'll just drive whereever/however it makes life easiest/fastest and see what happens

I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say that I *think* events are won in the slow stuff. Maybe I'm way off, though, as I am having my worst season yet and *think* I've been hitting the fast stuff fast.

I've been seeing the slow stuff as being my nemesis. Entry speed, early turn in, smooth throttle thru, and proper timing of full throttle out as associated with the traction angle. I'm not arguing your point..just illustrating my observations so that someome can hammer some sense into me In fact, Mike, If you ride along with people at events I'd appreciate it if you could ride along and critique.

With respect to early turn in, I've tried to focus on that this year. I have been viewing it as trying to get some rotation prior to the element so that you try to be more parallel (EDITed from perpendicular) to the back side of the cone. Then, cut the wheel hard to minimize the arc. However, I think this has slowed me down. Maybe I'm just confused, my approach is incorrect, or both. Or, maybe I'm doing well there and blowing it on the slow stuff!??! I'm running street tires too. Regardless of my execution, this is an interesting thread.

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Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.

I find all this talk about early/late apex to be confusing. I follow the KISS principle, where do I want to be on exit and what is the short possible distance to get the car there.

If anyone was watching Jim F at Greenville, he was text book on entering the 180. He darn ran over the entry cone on entrance and had that Camaro perfect on exit.

One key point everyone skipped over: braking. It all starts with early, early braking. By braking early, it allows you to start your turn early and then get on the throttle early. Aro provided me a great tip one day. While walking the course think of where you want to apply braking. Then take 5-7 large steps backwards, that is where you want to begin braking.

If you follow the mantra "brake, turn, gas"....you get to turn earlier without even thinking about it.

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Note that I'm talking about experienced autocrossers here -- yes we all need the discipline to not f*ck up the slow parts (see my comment about understeer being the enemy). But going fast in the fast sections is HUGELY more important than anything you do in the slow stuff.

Here, do a little math:

1. Go 10% faster in a 20 mph slow section for 10 seconds
2. Go 10% faster in a 60 mph fast section for 10 seconds.

How much time is dropped? See what I mean?

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1