THSCC Forums

Then you need one of my high quality Red Lantern Racing stickers to proudly display in your window.

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RedLanternRacing, builders of the fastest cars in last place.
Success is not an option.
1981 Scirocco, "Vera"

Someone explain to me why we don't have an awning???

(Just trying to play along Donnie)

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

I guess my point is that it would be best if we allowed someone to show up in a car off the showroom floor and not be told "your car is underprepped to compete". I agree, no sympathy is necessary for a car that is just a bit too prepped for one class but not enough for the one it gets bumped into, I used to be in that exact situationwith my old car (I had an integra with just a couple STS modifications and cross drilled brake rotors, which put me into DSP), and I realize that was my fault for not reading the rulebook.

I believe the "your car is underprepped" argument though shouldn't apply to a stock car, as its not like they have ignored the classing rules when they chose what modifications to do to their car, they simply haven't done any. We should be sensitive to that type of person, so as to not exclude members from competition who run their warrantied daily drivers from competition, instead of saying buy another set of wheels and r-compounds (an expensive, autocross only purchase) to be competitive or make some ST* legal modifications (which might be at odds with warranty) to make your car competitive or don't be competitive (driver skill can make any car competitive, but a classing argument assumes equal driver skill).

And before people nitpick about my specific situation, my CAI has a "green" warranty status from mazda. I bought my other wheels for cosmetic reasons as well as to be able to run a smoother riding tire on the street than at autocross, I'm still running my old street tires on my old stock wheels until they burn up. When those are gone, I'll probably put Falkens on them (since they are auto-x only wheels/tires), but if that makes me good enough to win TIR, I'll gladly move to an open class with you guys, but I feel I should win what I'm in first before I move up.

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

PAX may be flawed, but not nearly as flawed as using it with cars on street tires for which the PAX assumes R compounds.

I think Wes has the right idea. Everyone ponders this for a few months and votes on it like anything else at the club Christmas party.

Nothing is changing for 2006.. - AB

P.S. - When did Anthony Hodges become a THSCC member? I thought you need be a member to access this area of the boards?

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

Simply buying a set of R tires does not make you competitive for some cars. I can tell you the del sol would be even slower on stock shocks. Nothing is stoping any one from competing.



P.S. Aaron see this thread http://thsccforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=5064

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

The CP Taurus was a daily driver,that had been purchased with sub-frame connectors welded in (why I have no idea),other than this it was completely stock,the driver was honest about the mods but this sole mod bumped him to Prepared class.We also had several other instances where cars were bought as daily drivers and had single mods(oversized wheels or,CAI or,header,etc) that bumped them into higher classes and they (mostly kids or young parents) couldnt afford to buy an extra set of wheels and tires in order to be competitive.Most of these have went on to the open classes but a few still are financially unable to.I would hate to tell these guys (although PAX is biased against them)that you have to drive in the open class where you wont be competitive until you do more mods and buy R-comps.For most it is still a stepping stone class but for a few that just believe this is how it should be done, and a few that cant afford the open classes,TIR has been a very good class for them.

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Anthony Hodges
DSP 72

If you're racing a car and concerned about warranty, then I think the autocrosser mentality of this board might scare you. A lot of us will go purchase a car solely based upon it's classing and how competitive it might be for a specific class. I know I am not alone when I have walked into a showroom with my helmet to ensure head clearance.

The fact that someone shows up to an autocross car as it were from the showroom does not dictate that THSCC should provide a 'competitive' place for it to play.

As I said earlier, no one is going to change anyone's mind on this by discussing it. Let's put it to a vote. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

That's Street Mod legal.

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

Yup,we gave him the option of SM,CM,or CP,he determined that over time he would build the car into a legit CP car so he chose to go the CP route his first year.Of course now he is stuck in CP with NO Competition because he bought R-comps this year.

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Anthony Hodges
DSP 72

I worried about autocross when I picked this car, thats why I chose to get it without the moonroof (need extra headroom for my 6'5" frame+helmet). That doesn't stop me from wanting to maintain my factory warranty, and you know how unreasonable some dealers are in dealing with mod'd cars (some brands are more forgiving than others). Autocross shouldn't (in my mind) be something that you have to have a special dedicated car for. You may feel differently, and to that opinion you are entitled.

Furthermore, I'm not saying it is "dictated" that they should have a competitive class, however, I am saying that this is different than the usual "underprepped" argument Richard presented, in that having done no modifications to a car is a different situation than having done just enough to put you in the wrong class. The question Wes posed was "Now that the ST* classes exist, what is the impetus for TIR", and I was making an argument that there was still indeed an impetus for such a class. You are free to judge the validity of that argument, but its very different from the typical "I want a class just for my specific situation", or "me class" argument, as this is a rather common state for a car to be in, its how they come afterall. . .

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

Hey guys -

I haven't read the last few pages of this debate, but I don't think anyone has pointed out one important thing about THSCC:

We try to follow the SCCA ruleset. That includes classes.

Why do we do this? It makes everyone's lives easier -- the officers, the next gen of officers, the myriad people often asking for some rule exception or class change which for the most part, despite their best intentions, usually amount to a "me" class.

To preserve the simplicity and sanity of THSCC, I think the club should periodically review any "deviations" from the SCCA ruleset -- currently this would be TIR, LAD, and X class -- to make sure that they are still serving their purpose and that they "benefits" of the class still outweigh the "costs".

If we continued to add classes -- and I am sure many people would want more THSCC-specific classes than just LAD, X, and TIR -- without reviewing them, we could keep adding them until there are as many classes as there are competitors.

I am sure that everyone here can agree that if we had 200 entrant events with 200 classes, that would be a bad thing. Therefore, I think we can conclude that at SOME POINT, quantity is a bad thing.

What's the correct balance point for the club as a whole? Just all SCCA classes? The way it is now? More THSCC-specific classes?

I don't know the answer, but I do have my own opinion.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Let's vote - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

goes back to my argument of you can fault people for what they bought, but you can't fault them for what they HAVEN'T bought. In my mind, you can fault someone for having bought a car that isn't competitive in the class that its in. For example, my arguments in the big huge thread of mazda3 versus mini were irrelevant and selfish in retrospect. What I should have been debating is mazda3 on r comps versus mazda3 on street tires the whole time. And allowing replacement of wear and tear items is a necessary thing, it leads to "prepped" stock cars, but as stated, the biggest improvement timewise you can make to a car in stock class is R-compounds, if we remove that from the "showroom stock" competition, then we've made the playing field much leveller at least, and most who would be "prepping" their car would be running open class by their own free will anyways. . .

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

Enough talk. Let's put this to a vote. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

+1

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.