THSCC Forums

How is it helping Pitch to get better, though?

Sure, NOV is a fine place to let people get their feet wet without getting scared off by getting crushed by experienced folks on R-Compounds. But once you're hooked and coming back for more enough that you trophy out of NOV, why continue to provide a place where people who are a "day and a half" back can still get a trophy? Seems there is little incentive for those folks to investigate what they need to do to get faster.

Since this is *racing*, isn't getting faster *also* what it is about?


--Donnie

I'm not sure how THSCC's TIR class came about,but Triads developed because we had several members whose cars didnt fall into any of the traditional ST classes and they couldnt afford race tires(due to family obligations or whatever) and they wanted a competitive place to play.Knowing the PAX system wasnt fair,they opted to run in what started as a Time Only class.After a year of 6-10 cars per event we started awarding trophies.The 4-5 that started the class wanted to race,but couldnt afford to be competitive against the open classes.Now we have a few new,dedicated members,some of which have regained financial stability and moved on to the open classes.

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Anthony Hodges
DSP 72

The Evolution ax schools preach that you can learn more AX skills quicker on street tires than on R compounds and recommend novices stay on street tires for at least a season for that reason.
I don't really understand the rationale for wanting to get rid of ST PAX class, are those couple trophies (dash magnets!?!) going to bankrupt the club? Do they slow down the events? Do any of the open class competitors REALLY care if there's another cannon fodder or two added to the bottom of the class (except possibly the one who usually finished DFL so he can move up the ladder)? Who are they really hurting? If no one wanted to run on street tires the class would die a natural death by itself. Or is this just another locker room measuring issue (REAL men don't knock down cones in a parking lot on street tires!)
A lot of ado about nothing, me thinks.

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SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.

i think you'll find that the reason people want TIR eliminated is not for more trophies. That's pretty evident by our decision to go with plaques instead of wood from years past. The reason people want to get rid of TIR is to advance the sport and the club by making the "real" classes more competitve.



statistics are not your friend are they...did you work for the Mike Easley campaign?



hmm...doubt it...ST* classes aren't PAX'd classes, which is the main problem folks have with TIR...it would surprise me if we had anyone in the club vote to remove ST* classes.

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05 MCS

So forcing him into a class where he loses by 4.7 seconds is the solution to getting Pitch to be a better driver, huh.



See above. How is forcing a driver 4.7 seconds off the pace into an open class improving anyones competition in that class?

I don't get it.

I still want to know what *PROBLEM* will be solved by eliminating TIR.

Matt, i'm not thinking in terms of individual people...i'm thinking more of the program as a whole. i feel like that the TIR class has served it purpose, but is no longer necessary with the new ST* classes.

you want to know what the *PROBLEM* is...i think it's been stated here...you may not agree with it, but it's been stated. TIR dilutes the competition in open classes. it's hard to prove this since there's really know way to know how the group dynamic would change. my personal feeling is that without TIR, more folks will move to more competitive classes and therefore become better drivers. mo competition = mo better

chris
<who got better faster by trying to close a 4+ second gap wtih a certain SER in STS>

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05 MCS

Please don't let this become another 12 page bar fight. I had a number of people thank me for locking the other thread. I am not going to lock this one as long as everyone plays nicely and there is people on both sides discussing this, but if it turns into Brice vs. the world again, it probably will be locked.

For the record, I voted to keep TIR class.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

For the record, I don't think you should have locked the other thread. If people didn't want to read it, they could ignore the thing. I don't think it got out of hand by any stretch (well, but the time it was locked there had been some personal stuff, but it also had already been ironed out, it seemed). I'm not a fan of locking something because it's "going in circles", either. Let the idiots (like me) go in circles if they want.

Matt, to me there are two issues...one is that it dilutes open class competition. Two, if the guy is losing open class by 4.7 seconds then he'll work harder to get fast than if he won TIR (or lost it by .3s or whatever). I personally don't think the "normal" gap between those who are ready to leave NOV yet go to open is 4.7s. It might be in a couple classes where folks who compete nationally happen to show up (assuming they decide not to run X class), but that's not really the norm (and yeah, there are a couple classes with folks who don't run nationally but *could* obviously run nationally who would also kick a little butt). But folks stand a better chance of getting help from those folks when they're running heads up like that than when they're off in a different class.


--Donnie

Like I've said before, I really don't care which way this issue goes, but when I'm walking grid, I don't pay attention to cars that have TIR marked on the side of them.

If they've got DSP on the side, I'll stop and start a conversation. If the person is a new autocrosser, I'll offer to help with what I can. Unfortunately, these days, there aren't very many cars marked with DSP on the side.

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In need of car.

Personally I've never understood the appeal of indexed classes when there are enough competitors to have viable regular classes. Maybe because when I started 36 plus years ago they hadn't been invented yet . That said I commonly did my own personal index against the consistently fast classes to see how my performance stacked up against benchmark cars and drivers. It did a good job of either reinforcing what appeared to be a good drive or, conversely, made it clear that I really didn't have anything to be proud of that day.

I used to commonly run the same car in two different groups with different preparation rules. As a result it would be fully prep'd in one group and grossly under prep'd in the other. It was great fun seeing how many, if any, of the fully prep'd cars/drivers I could beat with my under prep'd car. It made me faster. I NEVER (well hardly ever ) assume that the car cannot go faster than I just drove it (since I'm not an alien ) so any "stretch goal" tends to make me try harder.

I purposely did not run TIR with my daily driver tires for two reasons (besides not liking index classes):

If I won it would be no big deal given my three and a half decades of experience. If I "lost" it would be embarassing given my experience. Much better to run in the normal class (where I had a good excuse for not winning) and try to do the best I could chasing Jim . . . from a distance and maybe give Martyn a closer target to shoot for as he relearns autocrossing after being away from the sport for a very long time.

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Yeah, I understand what you are saying. I personally hate locking threads. I wish you could put a thread into timeout for about six hours so people could cool off sometimes.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

You can unlock a thread and do that.

I believe that Chris has hit the nail on the head. This isn't to "punish" the few that run in TIR class, but to open doors into other classes that suit their purposes as well. And to those that feel that it is a "punishment", reread what former TIR competitors wrote about their experiences. Perhaps "tough love" is what is required. Life isn't always fair, and sometimes we need to take people out of the kiddie pool and let them play in the ocean. People would be surprised about what they can accomplish when the bar is set high.

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

I think folks just voted to do away with Tir to piss Brice off. Hell I did, It's really no skin off anyone’s back to have ten folks or so in that class, as was said they'd be at the bottom of the class initially, and in keeping with the adage that noobs should be on street tires for the first year it suits those who have been moved out of novice and those who want to do it on the cheap.
I believe that the tougher the competition the faster you'll learn. Especially with folks like Carl and Mary tutoring you as you compete against them, that’s right against them. as well as those folks who when they see an enthusiastic noob will go out of their way to help you. Thank you Jim P and Rick B for all those course walks. This is what I expected someone who pours over the results to see what class he shoulda been in to win a trophy would want, I was wrong.
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink, so if folks want to muddle through on their own why should anyone say they can’t, certainly not me. Besides if I really want to win trophies I’d get out of HS and move to TIR put on the azenis and kick some butt.
Dilution of the classes is an intangible, the improvement that one gets from running in heavy competition is also intangible( I still believe it). So when the chips are counted people are enjoying the TIR class that is tangible.
Why drop shit on the folks that are enjoying themselves…I’ll still get my ass kicked by Mary either way. If I run the vette then Adam can have a turn at me. When I get the MR2 running again then Chris and Kieth can pour some whupass on me. But I still believe that I will be faster than those who have chosen to run in TIR.

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2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2

Wes, i know i am going to regret this but, when you throw some people into the pool they come damn close to drowning. therapy would probably have helped but hey it was the 70's.

i am going to address this from a perspective that is not often given on these forums. some of us truly suck at autoX. i want to become faster. i want to learn just because it aggravates me that i can't turn early, get behind the cone, look ahead, etc. etc. ad infinitem. this driving style is counter-intuitive for me.

i have set my own bar. i compete against my own pysche. let the slow, the unskilled, the backmarkers have their own playground.

has it ever occurred to you uber-competitive forum fanatics that maybe these people don't want to know what you know or learn what you have to offer? while this sounds rude i only mean this as constructive debate and am not pointing fingers.

i firmly believe if TIR is not good for THSCC as a whole than it must go away.

Steve, I understand both points of view, but what I don't get is that a decision made either way is as personal as people are making it out to be. Again, go back in the locked thread and reread one of my last statements: Given that four street tire classes currently exist, can one provide an impetus to start a TIR class. If not, then I believe that the question answers itself. I see no real reason not to instate status quo ante.

Anyway, I've said all that I am going to say. Let's put it on the December ballot and let the membership decide.

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.