THSCC Forums

First I really personaly don't have a beef with TIR class. I am just playing the game that Wes started.

Now, I do think I know what the argument is...

It reduces the qty of people in open classes. This is NOT so that more people can get a trophy (in that only a percentage get a trophy and the more in the class, the more trophies awarded). It is so that the competative level of the class increases. You may think that you will just show up and be at the bottom of the barrel. That might be true. There is a bit of sink or swim in the theory, but the idea is that you stop comparing yourself against those in TIR and compare yourself against your open class competitors. That you may eventually improve your game and give them a run for the money.

There is also a social aspect. People enjoy hanging out, trash talking, whatever with those in their class. I know most of those that run STS open (sorry for those that I haven't really talked to yet). I have no clue who might be running STS in NOV or the equivalent *SP class in TIR. But if they were in STS, I might actually get to know them and overall have a better time. And the theory is that the same would happen to you as well.

I can't imagine that ANYONE is looking to boost open class participation as a way to get a trophy for their 3rd or 4th places finish.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

i don't think there are actually any participants specifically modding their cars with only TIR in mind. i could be wrong. i beleive i was the only non-street car in TIR at the beginning of the season. everyone else seemed to be daily drivers. so i believe your argument Brice will not hold water.

You missed my point entirely. I'm not trying to start anything other than a conversation about the current state of TIR. Reread my postings on the matter. So far this year, you've participated in three different classes -- HS, STS and TIR DSP. Clearly you have found appropriate classes to run in before you chose TIR as an option, so it is obviously not your first choice. Why vehemently defend it as such?

attacks started about when Casto suggested, for the record

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

Brice. if you haven't figured it out by now. Yes, this was going to be a rough ride. I think that was the point. I don't think that Wes actually is proposing that we do away with TIR (maybe he is). This can be a flame war, a productive dicussion or just a way to have fun beating a dead horse (slow work day?). How it turns out is yet to be seen.

I will say that nobody should be reading or participating if they don't want to get their feelings hurt. As George mentioned early on, this is a topic of death!!!

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

well, you'd have a hard time arguing that I would have a good "healthy" competition given the landscape I'm faced with in HS. . .

I agree in some cases you might improve to the point that you can give them a run for their money, but it always varies based on a persons specific situation. I've got a group of people I have fun competing with in TIR (some of whom wouldn't be in my class otherwise). The reason we have different classes is to suit peoples specific situations and allow them to compete on a fair playing field. With my car as it is and my stock class how it is, I won't be competitive in any other class than TIR.

Granted, there will always be people like me who are at a point where they either need to spend money to make their car competitive or deal with being non-competitive, but its not like I'm in a totally unique situation with a rare combination of mods. I want to run a stock car on street tires and be able to compete, how unique of a situation is that? Do we really want to eliminate the ability for people in that situation to be able to compete?

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

Dude, you knew where this was going when you started this. If we don't allow this to get personal, it can keep going.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

b/c I see it as the place where I can be competitive given my situation financially and as how I want my car prepped for its "non-autocross" duties. I ran HS b/c I was still stock at the time, I ran STS b/c I didn't have time to change my wheels back to stock that week (my other wheels are 17x7, stock is 17x6.5), and I ran DSP TIR this last time b/c I didn't know I'd be given a DSP pax (I'll know to swap my intake next time). I'm still feeling out where I should be, I'm not sure how you established me running 3 different classes in three events as having "found appropriate classes to run in", to me that implies much the opposite. I think I've found a good class now (HS pax TIR) which is why I'm defending it, not sure what you don't understand. If you use an HS pax for my times this past weekend (assuming the CAI didn't cut 2 seconds off my time or anything), I'd have trophied in TIR, placing 3rd, right in the thick of things, not way far behind, and not beating everybody up, right where I want to be for "healthy competition".

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

nm

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

attacks started when you started them, Richard had nothing to do with it

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

oh, i think the s*#t is flowing both ways

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05 MCS

not contesting that, just trying to point out who opened the shit slinging spiggot up. . . I think he actually enjoys it

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

and you don't...i think you need to take a good look in the mirror...the first time you got flamed i said to myself, "he's new and doesn't really know anyone in real life, so we should cut him some slack...he's probably a nice enough guy in person, just misunderstood on the forums".

now i say you get what you ask for...enjoy

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05 MCS

I'm not sure what I've done thats inflamatory, other than my "get bent" comment, but I think that was perfectly warranted for someone calling me/implying I was "pathetic". He then tried (probably jokingly) to imply that Richard was the one who was responsible for the insults starting, to which I took issue, Richard has been one of the few level headed contributors to these forums IMO. Sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way Chris, shees. . .

and no, I don't enjoy having to defend the mere existence of a very practical class that fits my car/situation perfectly for from what I've heard so far no good reason.

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

Sooo You don't want to spend more money for auto-cross... but you will spend more money for your car for looks, yet you are down on people who might spend more for auto-cross that looks? I understand wanting the car to look nice and I have not problem with that, I don't understand how you can complain that if we were to eliminate the tire class that you would have to compete against people put money towards their car for auto-x, just because they have different priorities.

Running R comps is not as expensive as you make it, My first set of R-comps and ties cost me 200 Shipped to my door for 4 tires and rims (yes they were used) In my whole racing career I have bought 1 set of new R comps. I have used, used tires most of the time. If I keep running the del sol and when I run out of the used tires that are under my house I will probably have to buy my second set of new R comps, since most people are not running on 14 inch R comps any more. The other day I saw a post for some 17 R comps that were slightly used for $200 dollars for the whole set.

If ran H Stock with your current tires, Say running R comps vs Street tires with Mary, Bernie and I in the class, if your Street tires were 1.5 sec slower than Mary, you may still place second, because at some events Mary has laid the beat down on us by over a second or 2 more than once.

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

not down on them at all, just saying I'm different, and I think many are, and we shouldn't try to exclude those who want to run stock cars on street tires by making them non-competitive as this is a very common situation. Everybody has different situations, this is why classes are there in the first place, and TIR meets a specific class of people, one that I happen to fall into, so I'm defending if, as I should. Its different to say that a class shouldn't be eliminated than to say a class SHOULD be eliminated. I'm not saying R-compounds should be disallowed, if you want to run them, go for it, I just don't think I should be forced to compete against you as its not a level playing field that way. This is why classes are there in the first place.

As far as R-compounds not being that expensive, I'm not sure if you are aware of the stock wheels I am encumbered with. 17x6.5 makes R-compound choices very slim and very expensive, and its not just the initial price, its the fact that they have to be replaced 3-4 times as often as a street tire that makes them 3-4 times as expensive in the long run.

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV