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But...My oem tires, Bridgestone RE-070's are TW rated at 140.

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Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.

But whats stock? OEM Shocks? I can get aftermarket shocks cheaper than oem shocks... oem tires? I can get aftermarket tires cheaper that OEM. What if I bend 2 rims, I can get 4 aftermarket rims that same size as stock and lighter for cheaper than I can get 2 OEM rims... so where are we saving money???[/quote]

point is, those people have made it clear they are willing to spend money. The only reason they would spend money to beat up on the TIR competitors is if they are pathetic, and should move to the open class, as their money could have been much better spent on actually making their car faster rather than "better prepped" for TIR. . .

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

two points. my BMW is not ST anything legal. thus SM at the very least. i tried TIR breifly as i did not want to buy another set of tires to autoX on.

which brings about point # 2. my driving would have to improve 3 fold to compete with stock classed cars in TIR while i carry an SM Pax.

for me this is all water under the bridge, i believe i have retired the BMW from autoX duty. but just a point to mention as there are other SM drivers currently competeing in TIR.

Point is I could spend less money on my car to replace worn out items with non stock parts, so whats stock? I'm not talking Koni's and R comps here, I am talking that I can get KYB Gr2's for less than I can get OEM Honda shocks, I can buy some Sumitomo HR2's for less than the OEM Michelins that came on my car, so how am I better prepping my car?

You have already spent more than some compeitors by buying and extra set of rims and tires than other tire class competitors, so by your own admission you should move to open. Funny Thing is I almost showed up and Ran Tire Class in my wife's integra, it has aftermarket tires and shocks on it ( of course the are GR2's and Kuhmo's). I am not a causal competitor, but I would have not qualms about running that car in TIR class.

Personally I have no problem with the Tire class as it is, however I can see the reasons for dropping it. I had a good time competing in TIR my first year auto-xing, however I moved the next year to open. I bought some better shocks and used tires and competeted just fine.

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

So, you're admitting that you're pathetic because you bought a second set of wheels and tires just for autocrossing?

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

when i say "stock form" i mean qualifying for stock class. so aftermarket shocks would be fine, as well as a fsb, cat back, bla bla bla...the only difference between stock class and TIR class would be that TIR had to run street tires.

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05 MCS

Ok, we are RIGHT on track...



Using the KISS principle, TIR attempts to remove the large yearly cost of R-tires. Putting in place other rules to further reduce cost such as "stock" only then pushes other out of the class. Such as those who have some basic mods that push them out of stock, but like you don't want to spend the money for R-tires. So stock only doesn't seem fair to them.



The problem as I see it, is that some people view TIR as a place to have fun. If they don't trophy, they are OK with it. Some view it as a place that they might be more competative and may do what it takes to be competative (extra tires and wheels). So as David points out, people will spend money to win TIR. That may or may not be the "spirit" of the class. However, defining the "spirit" in the rules is pretty much nearly impossible, so I saw, follow the rules and do and spend what you want. TIR class competitors can rise up and make stink (to change rules) when it becomes a serious problem.

Regarding outlawying "cheater" tires, the problem there is that currently those tires are cheap and there are a few that are competative. So why ban them? Now if someone came out with a $200 tire (R-tire price range) that kicked the ass of other current collection of ST* type tires AND people were running those in TIR AND enough people in TIR complained, then I could see some critical mass for talk of banning tires.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Brice,
I don't understand, You've bought an extra set of wheels and tires to autoX on, you've bought a CAI for the car. So you can run in TIR?????...Where is it that you're saving money? Why didn't you take the money for the CAI and put it toward R compounds added to the money you've spent for the "autox tires and wheels" you could have had what you claim is needed for running in the stock classes, R compounds... I don't understand

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2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2

I'll play the devil's advocate here. I did that in Tire two times. Basically, I found that daily driving Azenis and autocrossing them yielded only about 7500 miles on the R, sooo I tried to make the Falkens last. Well, that plan didn't last long.

Getting the extra wheels just granted me the opportunity to go faster by taking the plunge in R-comp world.

I'm as frugal as they come, but I'll be the first to admit that if you wanna go fast, you gotta spend a little green.

This thread is funny. Keep it coming, guys.



Ooooh - I wonder if I could win TIR class with a Forester XT using ESP pax... Hmmmm... I have a set of RT-615's that I haven't completely killed yet... and the suspension from the STi will fit it... and I am feeling a little pathetic lately... I think I'll try it!

What biggest advantage? Running anything other than against a stock-class PAX in TIR is almost always a *huge* disadvantage. Why? It is much easier to get closer to the required prep level in stock than any of the other allowed classes in TIR.

So what is the advantage exactly? Say I have a "stock" car and I decided to throw some springs and shocks on it to get an "advantage" against my TIR-class competitors. Guess what? Suddenly I'm saddled with an *SP PAX and I've just made it *harder* on myself. If you think tossing on some suspension bits on a "stock" car is getting close to fully prepped with respect to *SP, you need to re-read the rule book or take a close look at some fully-prepped cars sometime. I can only think of one car in Tarheel (and it is a recent acquisition) that is even close to pushing the *SP limits.

If I was running TIR, I'd chuckle every time I saw somebody running anything other than a stock-prepped car. I'd wish them luck and then promptly show them how big their "advantage" really is.

Jim
- who is thinking of running TIR against a CSP PAX next year just to prove a point...

Well, I wouldn't have won it. With the inability to run ST* PAX, I would have had to run a harder DSP PAX and would have been 2nd (by about 4/10ths). So like most classes, it gets harder the closer you get to the top. Maybe TIR is harder that STS! Brice, you are in the wrong class!

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

That was the case a few years ago but with the recent "tire wars" between Hoosier and Kumho, R's have distanced themselves from the street tire pack again. This seems to be mostly independent of surface as well.

Jim

I know this is gonna blow people's minds here, but. . .

There are things that are important other than just autocrossing when it comes to a car. NO, I didn't buy the second set of wheels for autocross. I bought the second set of wheels b/c they look better and I like them, and I run them on the street with a more sensible street tire (BFG G-force sports, 340 treadwear rating). With so many mazda3's running around, I like to have something to differentiate mine. I still have my stock wheels though (not worth selling them to me) and I can run a more aggressive tire at autocross, but I don't want to have to replace them every year (I'm still running my old street tires on them, dunlop FM901's, not sure yet what I'll replace them with), but I also don't want to chunk up my BFG's. The fact is TIR allows you to replace your autocross tires much less frequently than if you run R-comps.

The CAI I bought b/c it makes the car more fun on the street, but I don't want to go too far with mods to the point where my warranty is compromised (the mazdaspeed intake has a "green" warranty status). Clearly, JUST a CAI isn't worth it as far as autocross goes, so I'm fine with taking it off.

This isn't an autocross only car, and autocross performance isn't my only priority in life. Its my daily driven car, and as such, other considerations exist (warranty for one, compliant ride for another). I know this is hard to fathom for you hardcore of the hardcore, but believe me, I'm not alone. TIR allows me to run my daily driver and still be competitive, and not spend a lot of money on tires.

we class cars differently to allow people with differently aligned priorities compete on a level playing field. Thats exactly what TIR facilitates. Nobody has answered what the problem with it is? Are you whining b/c you finished second and there weren't enough people in your class to get a trophy for 2nd? Win first, that will eliminate that problem, and let me run in a class that is appropriate for my car/priorities.

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

get bent dude, all you're trying to do is start a flame war, its pretty obvious, go find something more productive to do with your life, see above for my explaination

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV