THSCC Forums

no, I realize that I am arguing for my specific situation, but I also realize that my specific situation isn't as contrived as the Honda Accord on R compounds, I have a stock car, on street tires, and I'd like to be able to run it in a class that I'd be competitive in. Lets take the different cars out of the equation to simplify things. Would anyone dispute that driver skill being equal, a mazda3 on R compounds would beat a mazda3 on street tires?

I realize the "me class" argument that Richard is making, but I fail to see how asking for a class for a stock car on street tires is being selfish, seems like a situation that a lot of people would be in (looked like 9 of us at the last even by my count. . .)

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

interesting trash talk, but irrelevant to this argument, as I stated earlier, classing arguments all assume equal driver skill. . .

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

I have no problem with the indices, for they are correct for what they were created from: National level events with cars and drivers (in most cases ) with the highest prep level.

I don't think Rick Ruth factors in that someone might take a stock Mini Cooper and run HS in a TIR class in NC.

I do get pretty frustrated when you complain that you can't be competitive in STS with an underprepped car. Click on the following links and scroll down to STS results:

Click Here

Click Here

Click Here

Click Here

The list can go on. My '01 Celica had one mod: drop springs in the rear. I had no coilovers, no power mods. I was running on stock ride height and Azenis.

The driver is 90% of this sport. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

No, interesting trash talk would be the standard $5 a tenth bet that AB does.

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

When did it drop to $5?

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Not spectacular just decent.
I'm not sure what I'm driving.
Maybe an ITR in DS.
Or half-assed STX prepped 330.

congratulations, nice driving

this is a classing argument though, an argument about that last 10%. I will work on the 90% on my own, I don't need you to tell me how bad of a driver I am to "inspire me", trust me, I'm working on that on my own.

This debate is a classing argument though, lets please leave derogatory comments about my driving, OR self agrandising posts about "how great of a driver I was" off of this post, and address the topic at hand.

btw, congratulations, you are the 1,000,000th person to tell me that autocross is 90% driver

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

There is nothing I posted that states anything about your driving skill. What I am saying is an underprepped car for a class with all other cars with street tires is not that big a disadvantage.

I am confident that your car in it's current state can trophy in STS. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

At local events, it's $5 a tenth. At National events, it kicks up to $10 a tenth. My co-driver and I did away with that this year to focus more on getting the car right, but I think it might return for Nationals. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

I agree its not THAT big of a disadvantage, but it IS a disadvantage, when we are discussing classing, these small advantages are what we are talking about. Don't get me wrong, I know that my biggest area for improvement is in improving my driving, but that doesn't keep me from wanting to win at whatever I do. Certainly, beating up on less experienced drivers is no fun, but thats not where I am yet. Once I win TIR, then I'll consider moving my underprepped car to the STS, but for now, I'd like to stick with those with whom I have good competition (I would have finished 3rd in TIR if I had an HS pax, so even within that class I have room for improvement). I treat it like NOV2, especially since I never had a chance to run in NOV in this car (I trophied in my integra like 4 years ago in NOV, making me ineligible)

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

So from reading your posts, you concede that there are alternatives for you to run your current car with street tires, but you want TIR to stick around just so you have a better chance of trophying? Doesn't this seem a bit selfish and odd to you on any level?

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here because it seems like several important things are being overlooked. I'm not a THSCC member, but I don't expect that to devalue the points I'm going to make. I normally don't have a dog in this fight...

#1. There have been 10+ entries in TIR for most of the events. That's not a small class. A core group of people obviously enjoy running that class and with that kind of participation why would you want to dissolve it?

#2. The PAX argument is irrelevant to TIR unless you make it relevant to all your other PAX classes (LAD, X). Novice is the exception here.

#3. Increasing competition in open classes. Why have a "X" or LAD class then. These people should have to go back to open class just like the TIR competitors. Their results are based off the same indexes as TIR and their entry #'s are less. Maybe the presence of some X class competitors back in the open classes will push the open class competitors a little harder. Or it could scare them off, much like it would possibly scare off some TIR competitors to go to open class. LAD is much like TIR class, but based on driver instead of tire choice. Are you willing to tell the ladies that they should have to run in open classes because they have no real reason to be seperate? That's the argument being made for TIR.

#4. Making better drivers. This should be a goal of all AutoX clubs and members, but it shouldn't be forced on everyone. If you've got a highly competitive class (the TIR PAX times were just as tightly contested as any other open class) it serves the purpose. The TIR competitors are more in competition with themselves than other cars. They know they are relying on a PAX index so their only assurance is to drive as fast as they possibly can every time.

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Justin B.
TSCC Pres.
#12 FSP Mazda Protege5

1) Yes, 10+ cars is a large class. Why dissolve it then? It's not fulfilling what it was originally intended to when it was created back in the mid 90's, and the PAX favor cars with easier pax.

2) In X class, one assumes that they are running a fully prepped car, thus the pax is relevant. Ladies class I won't comment on. TIR the current PAX index doesn't work for, so you will need to create a completely new one with street tires factored in.

3) If I had my choice, there wouldn't be a Ladies or X class. There is nothing about my sexuality that makes me a better/lesser driver.

4) Yes, making better drivers is the goal, but that doesn't mean if they don't want to, we keep around NOV2 for those that don't want to improve to play in. - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

Ok, I just locked the thread. I am sorry if I ended up giving random person X the last word on this and person Y was just about to post a witty reply and now they can’t. My quick explanation as to why I locked this is...

1. There is very little new information at this point. I think most everything has been said by now and we are just rehashing and rearguing the same points over and over again.

2. We were just starting to delve into just as heated topics such as “why should we have LAD class”, etc. Basically the thread was not heading toward a warm and fuzzy place.

3. This is a topic that most likely the people participating have an opinion and they are not going to change one way or the other. And I don’t think it was particularly educational for those on the fence watching the train wreck.

4. This is becoming a situation in which generally everyone is playing by the rules (no personal attacks, etc.) but it was gravitating toward a single person standing in a room (that he is free to leave but chooses not to) and is taking body blow after body blow. And more and more people were entering the fray with it becoming more and more one sided. (No implied comment here on who is wrong or right on this topic)

My suggestion is for those who have strong feelings on this should attend a club meeting and take this up with the officers. Everything here is just talk and is not official club business. This thread was not going to resolve the question of TIR class next year.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.