THSCC Forums

well that's a good question. the "harm" is that when you have many car classes, you end up diluting the field a reducing competition.

take your situation for example. if TIR was not available, you'd have to go to HS or STS, both of which have some pretty good drivers. You'd be forced by your circumstances to improve your car or your skills to be competitive (assuming you have a goal of being competitive). with your CAI and the fact that you are on street tires, you'd probably choose STS. you might get stomped for a season or two by some guy in an SER or a 2.5RS. but then after a while, you'll get the hang of it and start being competitive...it's totally worth it..ask me how i know

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05 MCS

Let's get rid of all season long PAX classes!

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In need of car.

This is the best reason I say do away with tire class and the notion to establish a novice point system.

I regret not jumping to DS sooner than 2005. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed racing with Dave, Steven & Mike, but had I gone to DS a year sooner I would have improved quicker I feel. Granted, it would be easier to make the transition to a stock class in which no one is one race tires, ala former gentlemen's agreement, but I'm sure that there are some great stock class drivers not running r-comps out there. Yes, it would have been discouraging at first, but every once in a while, a good butt kicking is a great motivator to give up or keep creeping your way up, all-the-while learning to be faster.

I'll second, third, whatever the idea that good competition motivates you. Take this weekend for example, Ken was breathing down my neck until the last two runs.

Two years ago, I was chasing the Jims in ES on street tires. If I got with in two secons, it was happy dance time. And I completely regret the time I spent in TIR the year before that. I had fun, but I improved much more once I moved to open class. (Even thought I didn't trophy since my first Nov until this year.)

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Not spectacular just decent.
I'm not sure what I'm driving.
Maybe an ITR in DS.
Or half-assed STX prepped 330.

guys, you missed my point entirely. . .

driving skill aside (I'll improve either way, I'm not motivated more by getting beat worse, so you can throw that argument out the window)

if someone has a stock car, and doesn't want to buy R-compounds. . .

what class do they have to run in for a little casual competition? the answer is none, b/c anyone who is competitive in stock class will have R-compounds. I don't want to buy them, I don't have that money to blow on autocross, I just enjoy doing it. You ALL know that a mazda3 on street tires won't be competitive against a cooper on R-compounds, thats just fact.

So if you do away with TIR, my choices are. . .

run in a class where I will get stomped time and time again by cars AND drivers that are lightyears ahead of me

buy stuff to make my car a reasonable competitor in STS (which I am against for the financial reasons I stated earlier).

What's wrong with allowing the casual autocrosser to have a little fun competition without having to spend a ton of money on R-compounds. I'm stuck on 17" wheels to stay in stock class which makes it even worse. I could care less about season points, so do what you want with that, I just like to have a class that I'm middle of the pack in rather than way behind the pack.

If you hate the class so much, I would suggest that you still allow TIR but only for stock cars. That would allow those who don't want to buy a bunch of stuff for their car still casually compete, and you SERIOUS competitors can stay in the open class.

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

If you want casual competition, play golf with Nassau betting. If you're not out there to win, why does it matter what class that you're in? Your ambivalence towards winning is *exactly* why TIR doesn't need to exist.

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

nobody said I don't want to win, I don't want to have to spend $600/year on tires to be competitive in autocross though, you missed my point entirely.

Why can't I be competitive and not buy a bunch of stuff for my car that I will only use once a month 8 times or so a year? Whats the cash prize for trophying again? Oh yeah, none, so thats why I don't feel I should have to spend a bunch of money to be competitive. I have a basically stock car, and plan on keeping it that way, but I'd still like to be able to run and be competitive.

and if I'm so non-competitve, why do you want me to be a bottom feeder in your open classes? So that when you come in thrid you can get a trophy b/c theres a pack of 8 cars off the pace?

Heck, why do we even have classes at all, lets just all run and the top 20 raw times of the day get trophies, then we'll have some REAL competition. . .

theres a distinct difference between wanting to be competitive, and willing to pay to be competitive, lets allow that difference to remain, so that this doesn't become a "who wants to pay enough to go the fastest" competition.

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

Regarding only allowing "stock" cars into TIR. You probably understand this, but "stock" class cars is not equal to what you find on the dealership lot. You still could have someone with trick custom valved shocks and all of the other allowances that "stock" allows show up and run in TIR and stomp all over people. I am sure there are people in the club who have sent more money on their car to run in stock class than I have to prep for STS. This is mostly because I am still underprepared for STS. I am totally OEM from intake to tailpipe. My konis are off the shelf and I haven't spent tons on wheels.

Oh, and Brice, realize that Wes started this thread since it has been about a week since we have had a serious dustup on the forum (he is probably bored). If we aren't calling each other names and getting this thread locked by the time we reach page six, I will be suprised.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

All things being equal... This is not going to happen. But, the saying goes that anything is possible at the local level (as the competitive level can be all over the map).

If you don't want to spend the money, then pick the class the works the best for you and hope for the best. Focus on the driving and try to have fun. I totally understand the money issue. I have sworn off spending ANY additional money on my car for a few years now other than new tires each year. It is just not the right car for the class and ultimatly I think the money is not well spent. So we all have our limits as to what we think is reasonable to spend.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

no one is "hating" here...we are just discussing something...let's not make this a fight by using strong words where they aren't warranted.



so, back to the discussion...i actually like this suggestion. it might be the best of both worlds. stock legal cars that don't want to run on race rubber can play. if you've modified your car out of stock form, then you must have the means to go to an ST* class.

has this been considered in that past? what do you all think?

it seems easy enough to adminster...stock form with street tires...a-badda-bing

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05 MCS

I certainly understand that stock doesn't necessarily mean STOCK. However, of all those allowable modifications that you can make and stay in stock class, R-compounds by far show the biggest benefit. Having TIR be only for "stock" cars is fine if you ask me, since it eliminates that biggest advantage. Sure there could be the crazy expensive "stock" TIR entry, but if they were willing to spend all that money, wouldn't they have been willing to spend the money to be competitive in STS instead, or more sensibly, be willing to spring the money for R-compounds (unless they are really obsessed with beating up on TIR competitors, in which case you should mock them mercilessly)? I'm just trying to allow this to be the "budget" class, so you don't HAVE to spend money tricking your car out to be competitive.

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

Brice,
Personally I agree that Tire class should exist on the local level for the casual competitor. The problem has come up in recent years because some of the 140+ street tires are almost as good as R comps, at some sites the advantage between them is very small. In the past their have been people who have bought and extra set of rims or , bought aziens and other tires that are very close to R comps to win the Tire class. If the Tire class stayed for the casual competitor it would be great, however a lot of the times it does not. If people are buying the "best" street tire or a separate set of rims for their "street" tires, they really should move into the open class's.

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

I run a seperate set of wheels for my street tires. ..

the reason being some of these really abrasive sites can chunk up my nice smooth riding street tires.

If "cheater tires" are the problem, theres an easy solution. . .

increase the required treadwear number to 220 (or whatever is necessary), that will take the Falken's out of play if thats your gripe.

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

But whats stock? OEM Shocks? I can get aftermarket shocks cheaper than oem shocks... oem tires? I can get aftermarket tires cheaper that OEM. What if I bend 2 rims, I can get 4 aftermarket rims that same size as stock and lighter for cheaper than I can get 2 OEM rims... so where are we saving money??? And this would be easy to admin?

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

So wait you have a sperate set of rims, and Falkens?

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us