THSCC Forums

I guess it comes down to what you think "encouraging" someone to be more competitive means. For me, being competitive in a position where I can see s slight improvement in my time can make the difference is what encourages me to be competitive. I KNOW I have a chance at winning, so I'll push as hard as I can. Showing up every time to know that the best I'll be able to muster will be 4th isn't encouraging in any way shape or form to me. I'll still try hard, but its pretty demoralizing. This is the reason we have classes in the first place. I mean, we can extrapolate the argument of combining classes to make things "more competitive" even further and elminate classes altogether, then I suppose Patrice kicking my ass would "encourage" me even more right? We need a balance, and given the competition there was in TIR, I think the class is doing just fine.

Here's what I see:

TIR, 1st place, HS, would have been 1.2 seconds off the pace of HS (a full 2 seconds behind you David),

TIR, 2nd place, DS would have been running in a two person class

TIR, 3rd place, DS I guess would have accompanied 2nd place TIR

4th and 5th place, both GS, both at least 2 seconds off the pace, almost 5 SECONDS behind the GS winner

6th and 7th (I'll say I was in HS to make this look better, put me in DSP and I got STOMPED) were both about 3 seconds off their open class leader, nowhere near competitive

8th would have been in FS, 3 seconds off the pace

So, we had TIR existed, we would have had a DS class with 2 people in it, and added some non-competitive people to FS, HS, and GS. I don't see how this makes things more competitive. I guess Bernie would have had a trophy to take home.

As it was though, the DS people had someone to run with, and us HSer's and GS'ers not on R compounds had a nice competition.

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

Actually, Brice, you would have won DSP, but let's not let facts get in the way of your argument. How do you know how your competition is doing in a PAXed class anyway? You state that there was competition, but I didn't see anyone with a calculator and Ruth's index in grid when I was working. But I know what others in CSP were doing because we make it a point to know what is going on in the class. One simply cannot do this in a PAXed class.

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

I'll vote for ya. Can we ban X class too?

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Sure. I wouldn't have a problem with that either - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

Hmmm, hard to agree with that argument . . .

If we designed our class structure based on putting people where they KNOW they have a chance at winning . . .

you see what I see?

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Keith Q.
2008 Top Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmX8XuZ_DCo&NR=1

Hmm, I stand corrected, I didn't even bother to look at DSP, figured I'd have been nailed, good catch. Go Me!

You guys have taught me my real lesson though, web forums are a useless place to try and have a civil discussion, at least the THSCC forums are. When this thread was started, nobody wanted to hear the argument that TIR should stay, I shouldn't have even bothered. When you do get rid of the class, be sure to take this part off of your FAQ on the website though:

"
I don't have fancy tires. Won't I get thrashed by people who do? top

No! We even have a special Street Tire Class for people who don't want to go to the extra expense of buying special autocross tires."

may I suggest you change it to "you've gotta pay to play" or "you will unless you pick a non-competitive class that you really don't belong in for the day!"

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

So Brice,
What would you say if someone new to the club shows up and runs TIR class with the ulter uber expense(220+) super sticky but +140 tire, then the a few other or the competitors start doing the same and changing tires at events, yet here you are on stock tires on a stock car, how is that the level playing filed you seek, how is it different than competing an open class?
You think it won't happen? It has in the past several people where showing up with the hot tire, changing tires at even all in pursuit of winning the Year end 1st place TIR trophy. There was a huge gap between the top 4 or 5 competitors and the rest of the field, it was anything but a level playing field.

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

ahem....

You DID buy special autocross tires to play.

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In need of car.

no, I didn't, I've already explained this once in the thread. . .

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

Now give me a break, this has been a very civil discussion, in fact I see you have insulted just as many people who supposedly insulted you, that was a cheap shot you took at Bernie and I should have called you on it. Just because we disagree with you does not mean we aren't listening. If the decision to remove the TIR class happens it will not happen till next year, as changes like that are not made mid year.

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

See, again this seems like you're taking this personally.

This discussion is usually very heated with supporters on both sides. NOTHING PERSONAL, but if there's only one person actively supporting it, I think that says a lot for the importance of the class.

BTW, I have no real beef with TIR. If we keep it, fine. If not, that's fine too.

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In need of car.

I would say "you win" and probably move to a different class where there weren't those type of people running. Right now, TIR isn't that though, so thats where I run. Those people seem to be running in HS for now. . .

I've been over this

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

I know I am being pretty liberal in taking a few quotes out of a larger post, but no, that is not why we have classes.

There is a totally seperate topic that gets tossed around sometimes. It is called the "I" class. Basically that is a class in which I can beat some other people in. "I" get to be the winner. So whatever car or prep level (or driver skill) that I have, "I" get to win and feel good about it. Another example of this is that maybe you DO have the right car, etc. You HAVE been winning. Then there is a restructuring of the class and all of a sudden you are not winning because some new car is in your class and is kicking your ass. That is another time you see "I" class arguments. Your comments are starting to sounds like "I" class comments.

So, classes don't exist to give more people a chance at winning trophies (my perception of your statement above). They exist to group similar performing cars together. And each class has a range. Cars at the bottom belong in the class, but may never win. Figure in prep level and driver ability as needed.

So life is not fair. You may try hard and not do well. I think way too many people expect to jump in and try hard and be rewarded for the trying part. I spent a few years languishing around mid pack in STS with people like Matt Nicholson, Kevin Allen, Aaron Buckley and Chris Brown beating me on a regular basis. It was a monthly regular thing and while I had fun at each event, I didn't like going home knowing I had been beaten. By a combination of them leaving for other classes and me getting better (I like to tell myself it was the getting better part) I finally won my first event last year. And you know, it felt so much better than if I had won it right away. And I can also say that between the time I was getting my ass handed to me and today, I haven't spent a great deal of money on the car.

Ok, I am rambling now. I will shut up.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

I don't feel like I'm being personally attacked, except for a couple times which I've pointed out. I DO fell that my suggestions and my arguments aren't really being listened to, as I've had to restate them over and over again, clarifying again and again after people misinterpret what I've said. I've lacked patience with others, that has been my main offense in this thread, but people completed what they knew about me with typical noob stereootypes very quickly before they cared to ask or even read what I posted in many cases. This was one of those threads though where people had their mind up already, it really served no purpose.

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2012 MX-5 Sport SUV

My perception Brice is that you have made your point as to why it should remain a few time, but continue to argue with the masses on various other related topics.

Flat out ask who wants for us to remove TIR class. Wes just started forum discussion. Nothing official. I have alread said that I really don't care one way or the other. So have a few others. I think that Wes, Aaron and maybe someone else have stated points against the class. Heck, you joked earlier about why we don't all run for RAW times. There is a group here who would be perfectly happy doing that. We are on page eight of this thread. How many different people are you fighting with over this. Does that reflect the club as a whole? Who knows?

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.