THSCC Forums

http://www.thscc.com/autocross/events/2 ... 6indx.html

I took 2nd in the PAX and 2nd overall raw. Kevin took 5th in the PAX and 3rd overall raw. We were #1 and #2 in DSP _OPEN_ out of 10. 2nd place margin over 3rd was 2 seconds. 3rd place is on race tires. 3rd place (Jordan Normark) driver is no slouch either, and he took 10th in PAX.

Kevin and I were both running street tires. I was only on 205s on a 7" rim, even less than I usually run in open class.

Granted, this was Sanford, and certainly some "regular" fast drivers weren't there. But c'mon people, isn't it time we treat Azenis and other similar tires for what they really are? RACE TIRES.

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

No.

--Kevin H.

_________________
2003 WRX (again!)

As soon as the SCCA says that the Azenis are no longer appropriate for ST* class, yes. Until then, no.

_________________
Has no responsibility whatsoever.

Really, I think you're creating a problem where none exists. I just can't support a rule that to the average TIR competitor looks like a ban on the best and cheapest performance tire out there. I know that you're not proposing a ban but tell that to the relative newbie who shows up on Azenis (bought because they are good and cheap, not because they are the tire to have) and gets punted "to the wolves" in open.

The monster 9-page thread did serve a very good purpose though. It looks like several drivers are considering running open who ran in TIR this season.

--Kevin H.

_________________
2003 WRX (again!)

_________________
Has no responsibility whatsoever.

That argument does not hold water. Then we should feel for the guy that put an air intake on his Miata and got punted to the CSP PAX in Novice class? If the rules are well published, then no problem.

Additionally, you are proposing we allow the continued weakening of Open classes in order to accommodate this nonexistent participant. We only retain 10% of the novices that show up. So the chances of this person that shows up with a tire that is banned in our TIR class, actually staying around is pretty slim any ways.

I believe there is an issue. Simply take a look at the results for Triad and VMSC. Compare their open class competition to THSCC's. I know VMSC dropped their whole TIR class last year. I do not know what strong arm techniques Triad uses to have a class of 4 in TIR (2-3 are THSCC members).

Every year, the SCCA reviews the classes and makes adjustments to the class based upon improvements in technology, etc. That what this proposal was all about. Mike showed this weekend that these tires have an unfair advantage over the other tires in the TIR class. Actually, DS proved it all year.

I see most of the arguements against banning certain tires in our TIR class as a self-serving attempt to get a piece of wood at the cost of reduced competition in THSCC.

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Well, I don't believe that Azenis are really as fast as r compounds (although closer at Sanford than most places). If Mike had been running on r compounds, I truly believe that the gap between his time and Phil Wehman's time would've been tenths.

If you're interested enough to refer to the Saturday RBC autox results, you'll see that Mike beat me there by almost two seconds, on a 40-sec course. I was driving pretty damn hard, and I was on much better tires than I was using at Sanford.

But... I still think they should be treated as "special race tires." Meaning, if you bought Azeni because they're fastAR, and you're not running STS or STX, you belong in Open. jmo...

Well the difference in my argument is that the people who show up with non-stock intakes and get stuck in *SP or STS are there in accordance with a national ruleset. If THSCC sets up a list of 140+ treadwear tires that are not legal in TIR we will have a markedly different standard than every other club that I know of in our region. I hold that this is a bad thing, even though THSCC is under zero obligation to conform to the other clubs rulesets.

I have noticed how few people compete in TIR in other local clubs and wondered why Tarheel is so different. I think it's a club culture issue. There has been a strong culture in Tarheel that wants people to "run in TIR if you didn't bring Hoosiers/Kumhos". This doesn't exist in other clubs. As an example, CCR has had a TIR class for at least the last 2 seasons. Average participaiton is about 3 drivers. There are a _lot_ of people in open who could theoretically run TIR. They choose not because the club has historically not pushed them that way.

I say it again: The series of "real street tire" threads on this board and the large amount of discussion on this topic at events has served as a wake up call. I think a significant number of TIR competitors will run open next season because they now realize that open competition is more fun and that they are not automatically uncompetitive just because they don't have Hoosiers/Kumhos.

--Kevin H.

_________________
2003 WRX (again!)

The numbers don't support that - and I swear there's no conspiracy with Mike here . In the 5 asphalt events this year, I beat him by:
2.354 sec - 6.0%
1.747 sec - 4.7%
0.894 sec - 2.3 %
1.960 sec - 3.1%
2.402 sec - 4.1 % (Azenis)

Hmmmm....maybe the Azenis are *extremely* competitive.

it seems to me that part of the reason why people stay in TIR versus moving on to the Open classes has alot to do with the "culture" of our club. I feel that overall our club is open to new people and extremely friendly but it also has "clique" aspects of it as well. The ability to have "friendly" competition keeps people in TIR because they may have started there and decided to get Azenis because it was the best tire that kept them there competing against the people in the club they actually know. It seems that there are some people don't reach out to new people and stay in there "circle of friends" which may be class, experience, or car type oriented. And this may keep people from moving from one class to another because it no longer makes the competition fun and/or friendly but makes it boring. I'm not saying this is the necessarily the case but its just my opinion as a possible reason to the limited flow of people from TIR to open classes.

_________________
'88 bmw 535is
'98 honda civic ex

OK here are the FACTS:

Average values, per event, novice class not included:

1998
Open: 53
Tire: 9 (14.5%)
Pro: NA

1999
Open: 42
Tire: 8 (15%)
Pro: 2

2000
No results available

2001
Open: 74
Tire: 22 (22%)
Pro: 5

2002
Open: 77
Tire: 21 (20%)
Pro: 6

2003
Open: 77
Tire: 25 (23%)
Pro: 9

Yes, I concede that between 1999 and 2001 there was a big jump in street tire participation as a percentage of the whole, but to claim that:



is just plain wrong. Spin it how you want, but I just listed the FACTS. Those are *real* attendence numbers. As a percentage of the whole, yes, street tire is becoming more *popular* (please notice the word choice there, it isn't random), but open class is not "weakening" as you claim, to the contrary, it seems to be rather stable, or increasing. Pro class is making a bigger difference.

For the past 3 years (yes, I consider 3 years a trend) we have hit a fairly impressive equilibrium.

Yes, I'd be happy to share my spreadheets (I might have done things entirely wrong).

Scott

I think there is only one self serving person in this thread.

_________________
David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

What you omitted was the percentage of both Open and Pro. Since 1998 open class went from 85% to the current 69%. Pro went from 0 to 8% of participants.

So the Open classes have seen a decline in participation of 16%. That is a pretty remarkable decline in a fast growing sport. Yes, some of that has come about due to PRO.

But most of the PRO drivers were strong armed out of Open in an attempt not discourage the Open classes. It appears that theory was wrong. But if you add PRO back into open class, the decline in Open participation is still 14% from 1998 to 2003.

Based upon 2003 participation, if you eliminate PRO and the tire rule moves only 10 competitors to Open you would approach the balance of competition in 1999.

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Open has seen a decline *as a percentage of the whole* not a decline in participants. There are more people running open class at THSCC events than there ever has been (a trend that has leveled off since entry limts were invoked).

Yes, it *did* decline as a percentage of the total participants, but it has stabilized and is no longer declining, AND, I will say it again, the numbers are higher now than 4 years ago.

What is a problem now, that wasn't a problem in 2001 and 2002?

Scott

Wheeeee! This is a fun thread. I hope everyone else is having fun too.

Kevin Hoff and Matthew see right through my efforts, and I agree with them completely. I don't think we should change the rules, I think we ARE changing the culture, and I think that's a good thing, whether people agree with us that there is a "problem" or not.

Scott - can you generate numbers for the percent of stock drivers in open versus TIR for the last few years? I think that the popularity of good street tires in STS/STX/TIR will show that the open classes "based on" race tires are what have been hurting.

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1