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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:58 pm 
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Clearly that is someone who has never run in a ladies class or they would know the ladies can really 'bring it'. 8)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:14 pm 
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chris petereson wrote:
Clearly that is someone who has never run in a ladies class or they would know the ladies can really 'bring it'. 8)


Oh, it is so, so tempting....step away from the keyboard, step away from the keyboard :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:22 pm 
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I've only ever heard of *one* good reason for ladies classes at all, and that's to help husbands/wives (or sub boyfriend/girlfriend) race together such that they can more easily help each other, PARTICULARLY when one of them already has a codriver (like the case where I owned the Miata, Eric and Chris both want to codrive).

Having that capability makes it easier to get women involved in the first place. My personal opinion is that it should generally only be a stepping stone to women running in open. Why? Because this is racing, dammit. And because I don't believe there is any reason why a man should be better at this sport than a woman (other than the POSSIBILITY that men have some stupid genetic thing that generally makes us fear death a little less than women, but even that can be worked around, I think...as much as men have to work around it to keep it in check enough to be good, women can work around it to extend past their "normal" comfort zone).

And because it's RACING, it should be about being THE BEST DRIVER. That's why we have *classes* at all....because people drive different stuff and it's the best way to help take the car OUT of the equation. Why add in something arbitrarily stupid like *sex* just to increase the amount of trophies we give out? Again, if it helps get women STARTED, I say fine. But women running in the NORTH CAROLINA AUTOCROSS CHAMPIONSHIPS ought to be willing to suck it up and COMPETE for something like, oh, A CHAMPIONSHIP. To me, a championship is worthless if it means you were in a "stock" car and indexed better than ill-prepared mod cars. It's meaningless if you didn't beat but one other person to get it. It's meaningless if the only reason you want it is to show your Mom why you missed her birthday (that said, if your local club wants to do that at a local event, fine...I just don't think a championship event is the place for it).

It's nice we have some classes at local events that help people get started. Nov, Lad, and even Tir. My opinion, though, is that those should be stepping stones, period.

Also, I don't care for the "stock has an advantage" in indexed classes thing. If you don't have enough folks participating in your classes to do anything else, THEN TOO FRIGGIN BAD. IMHO, less than three people in a class for an event like NCAC should be bumped somewhere (and that goes for open classes, too). Beating less than two other people hasn't proven you as much of a champion, IMHO.

And no, I'm not a lady, obviously (though I do have cute legs...*cough*). I don't think *only* female opinions are relevant, though, since this issue is somewhat generic (as many issues can be applied to "I" stock discussions, TIR discussions, etc). I agree they do have a certain *extra* relevance, particularly if the issue were somewhat borderline (like every L class had two or three entrants). But I don't think we're even *close* to having "enough" entrants in but a tiny amount of L classes to seriously consider much else.

Personally, my recommendation is let there be an L class for any class where three or more L's register for it. After registration closes if there aren't enough L's in a class, bump them to the indexed class. I just don't see why the NCAC should give trophies to people for being the only one (or even two) in their class. All my crabby opinion, of course.


--Donnie


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:31 pm 
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Donnie Barnes wrote:
I've only ever heard of *one* good reason for ladies classes at all, and that's to help husbands/wives (or sub boyfriend/girlfriend) race together such that they can more easily help each other, PARTICULARLY when one of them already has a codriver (like the case where I owned the Miata, Eric and Chris both want to codrive).

Having that capability makes it easier to get women involved in the first place. My personal opinion is that it should generally only be a stepping stone to women running in open. Why? Because this is racing, dammit. And because I don't believe there is any reason why a man should be better at this sport than a woman (other than the POSSIBILITY that men have some stupid genetic thing that generally makes us fear death a little less than women, but even that can be worked around, I think...as much as men have to work around it to keep it in check enough to be good, women can work around it to extend past their "normal" comfort zone).

And because it's RACING, it should be about being THE BEST DRIVER. That's why we have *classes* at all....because people drive different stuff and it's the best way to help take the car OUT of the equation. Why add in something arbitrarily stupid like *sex* just to increase the amount of trophies we give out? Again, if it helps get women STARTED, I say fine. But women running in the NORTH CAROLINA AUTOCROSS CHAMPIONSHIPS ought to be willing to suck it up and COMPETE for something like, oh, A CHAMPIONSHIP. To me, a championship is worthless if it means you were in a "stock" car and indexed better than ill-prepared mod cars. It's meaningless if you didn't beat but one other person to get it. It's meaningless if the only reason you want it is to show your Mom why you missed her birthday (that said, if your local club wants to do that at a local event, fine...I just don't think a championship event is the place for it).

It's nice we have some classes at local events that help people get started. Nov, Lad, and even Tir. My opinion, though, is that those should be stepping stones, period.

Also, I don't care for the "stock has an advantage" in indexed classes thing. If you don't have enough folks participating in your classes to do anything else, THEN TOO FRIGGIN BAD. IMHO, less than three people in a class for an event like NCAC should be bumped somewhere (and that goes for open classes, too). Beating less than two other people hasn't proven you as much of a champion, IMHO.

And no, I'm not a lady, obviously (though I do have cute legs...*cough*). I don't think *only* female opinions are relevant, though, since this issue is somewhat generic (as many issues can be applied to "I" stock discussions, TIR discussions, etc). I agree they do have a certain *extra* relevance, particularly if the issue were somewhat borderline (like every L class had two or three entrants). But I don't think we're even *close* to having "enough" entrants in but a tiny amount of L classes to seriously consider much else.

Personally, my recommendation is let there be an L class for any class where three or more L's register for it. After registration closes if there aren't enough L's in a class, bump them to the indexed class. I just don't see why the NCAC should give trophies to people for being the only one (or even two) in their class. All my crabby opinion, of course.


--Donnie


Well said Donnie. Well said.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:04 pm 
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Richard Casto wrote:
Oh.. Forgot to say, I have no dog in this fight.


Did you just call our wives dogs? :shock: :shock:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:07 pm 
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well, I appreciate all the opinions that were stated with out derrogatory undertones or jabs at other clubs. I meant for this to be a discussion about making the NCAC stay true to form.That is one of a divisional or national event.Some people thought this was a joke ,I'm sorry you people couldnt see how some feel without making fun of them or worse.I have recieved 3 calls from Triad female members upset over this thread,and the one on Triads Forum, and mostly they were VERY upset over the false names that had been added to the NCAC entry list.I'm sure this was all done in fun, But the ladies now say they will no longer participate in the NCAC because your club thought it was funny to degrade them in public.Sometimes you should stop and think who you might offend before posting. Most of us like a little ribbing every now and then but some cant take it.I've said enough And will not comment further.

Thank You for allowing me to speak my peace.
Anthony Hodges
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:22 pm 
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*sigh*

All I can say is that I hope folks don't take a couple of pretty stupid jokes as a representation of all of Tar Heel. The "Ivanna" joke, while a joke, was fairly tasteless. Besides, we all WANT to win. If we didn't, we wouldn't be *racing*.

That said, I don't see why we "have" to follow Divisional or National formats. There are already other accepted deviations, and I like my own personal proposal best, particularly given the level of female participation we currently have. I think it encourages participation rather than discouraging it, as it gives everyone a relatively COMPETITIVE place to play. If the first goal of a female OR male competitor is NOT to *compete*, then I don't care if they don't show. I do care about no-shows because someone is feeling made fun of, though. *sigh*


--Donnie


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:34 pm 
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Donnie Barnes wrote:
*sigh*That said, I don't see why we "have" to follow Divisional or National formats. There are already other accepted deviations, and I like my own personal proposal best, particularly given the level of female participation we currently have. I think it encourages participation rather than discouraging it, as it gives everyone a relatively COMPETITIVE place to play. If the first goal of a female OR male competitor is NOT to *compete*, then I don't care if they don't show. I do care about no-shows because someone is feeling made fun of, though. *sigh*


--Donnie


I actually liked your suggestion Donnie. The only problem with it is....it would be a morning of the event decision because you would have to wait and see who actually showed up. Most people want the decision made before then (officers included so that is one less thing for us to think about that morning).

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:54 pm 
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Bernie Baake wrote:
Richard Casto wrote:
Oh.. Forgot to say, I have no dog in this fight.


Did you just call our wives dogs? :shock: :shock:


Umm, let me go on record by saying..... "No". :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:29 pm 
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man, i was close to forgetting that we do this for fun.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:40 pm 
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Jennifer Carter wrote:
man, i was close to forgetting that we do this for fun.


Remember folks, discussing LAD class is topic #7 in my "topics of death"...

http://www.thsccforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=42983

:lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:20 pm 
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[quote="Stephen Westerfield]
I actually liked your suggestion Donnie. The only problem with it is....it would be a morning of the event decision because you would have to wait and see who actually showed up. Most people want the decision made before then (officers included so that is one less thing for us to think about that morning).[/quote]

*shrug* I can see that, but at the same time I really don't think you're going to put anyone off too badly if you just say "we'll honor any "L" class that has three or more entries. any less and you go to LAD. no exceptions." Then just tell T&S that's the way it is, and after registration closes you have T&S sort accordingly. It's an extra burden on registration/T&S, but not so much anyone else that I can see (though I do understand that *any* extra burden is significant, so if you say "no" to the proposal based on that alone, I ain't gonna bitch).

As for wanting the decision made before then, well, too bad. Get enough for your class and you're good. Don't and pay the consequences. Racing is racing unless you don't have competition, in which case it's a two day Sunday drive. All MHO.

(For the record, this is sort of how ProSolo works. If you don't get five entrants, you have no chance to make the Super Challenge, which is really what everyone should be shooting for. Class wins are nice, but doing well in the Challenge is the Holy Grail.)


--Donnie


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:41 am 
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jimpastorius wrote:
I demand an Irish-American indexed class. We just do not have enough Irish-Americans at the events. Probably due to the fact we are usually hung-over and hate bright daylight. I know this class would attract more Irish-Americans to events. Since a good Irish woman would kick most men's butts, I don't think there is a need for an IAL class (Irish American Ladies).

Yes, I will go out on a limb and come up with an index system for this new class.


i'll bring the beer. of course i am only a half breed at best. so i guess i'll need to bring more beer. :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:04 am 
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And people wounder why NCAC just about died....

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:09 am 
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David Teague wrote:
And people wounder why NCAC just about died....

It sounds like you know, how about enlightening those of us that likely have a different theory.


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