THSCC Forums

i read the post a couple of times and i'm still not sure how it would work...i guess my opinion is that any changes should be kept REAL simple (like "ban XYZ from TIR)...just think how hard it is to explain our classes as is...this is my 2nd year and i'm just now understanding it.

plus you are right, this would be a nightmare for some already overworked timing personnel.

anyway, that's 2 cents.

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05 MCS

Oh, you were serious!

Maybe we should all quit picking on them TIR guys and just leave it alone. If the people who are getting their butts kicked because of the ringer tires don't care (I haven't noticed a post from a TIR person complaining that he/she can't compete against the money-spenders and wants them out), then apparently nobody's getting hurt.

Kevin
-running DSP/TIR in Sanford on my "real" street tires if my Azeni finally die a horrible death Friday night... otherwise, it's DSP/Open on Azeni!

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I feel the need to once again
explain the motivation behind the original idea: Participation in open classes is declining, and TIR is getting too big because of recent tire technology advancements.

- There are no discussions about ringer tires
- There is no intent to get people to stop buying these tires!
- Repeat after me: "If I bought these tires to race on, I am running race
tires". Welcome to open class.

All we're talking about doing here is redefining what a race tire is for the purposes of open class rules to make reality match intents. That's all, that's it, period, nothing else.

Any other implications of motive are unfounded.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

hehe, well yes and no. I don't care if this happens or not. But I can see how it could work. I am actually curious as to why it couldn't work. I was expecting those that wanted more number in the open class to jump all over this.

Let me try this a different way...

Why do we currently publish PAX results? I assume it is because enough people care about those results that they would like to see where they stack up. Please don't jump in with arguments pro/con the validity of PAX. The bottom line is that regardless of it's accuracy, validity, etc. people care about PAXed results.

So, I was saying that EVERYONE runs in open class. The entire event (including Timing and Scoring) would be run as if EVERYONE was in open class. This is pretty much how we do things now regarding run groups. Correct me if I am wrong, but TIR, NOV and PRO run with their respective base class. There would be no TIR, NOV or PRO numbers on cars.

BUT in addition to open class results we would compute other PAX results (like we already do with the current all inclusive PAX results). The only difference would be that we could have three PAX classes.

They would be.. (1) an all inclusive (replacement for PRO class maybe) like we currently have. (2) would be a TIR class. Use of "R" and all "banned" street tires would drop you out of this class. (3) Would be a Novice PAX.

So in addition to publishing PAXed results, we would also award trophies.

So the changes would be....

1. No TIR, NOV and PRO magnetics (which might kill this idea.)

2. Additional info at registration. You would need to provide your novice status (yes/no) and your tire choice. These two extra items would determine if you would be included in the extra two PAX result list.

3. Trophies for PAXed classes.

4. People can win trophies based upon both open class and PAXed results.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

And if you went with my idea outlined above, the banning of specific tires could be optional. If we leave Azenis, KD, MX, etc. allowable in TIR, these people would still be in open class results, but they would also be eligable to be included in the TIR PAX results. If anything what this might do is move more people away from "R" tires toward the super-street tires as they MIGHT be competative in some open classes AND in TIR at the same time. Not sure if that is a direction we would want to go or not. Maybe, maybe not.

Hey I am just tossing ideas out.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Lets see, speaking from my experience:

1) The so called "ringer" tires are a far cry from a race tire. The people that make this claim have a tendency to run on old, busted race tires, and, yes, a Kumho that has seen too many heat cycles (or Hoosier) will be slower than a Falken Azenis. That just confirms the whole Azenis = street tire ideal, they have uniform grip to the cords. If you want to go faster, buy race tires more often.

Example: In Rockingham we dusted off the year+ old Hoosiers and were blazingly fast compared to any of the street tire cars. I am confident that I could not have run as fast on the Falkens, and that was with old busted Hoosiers.

2) I see no evidence of any real participation changes between 2002 and 2003 (I've added up the numbers).

3) I often hear that our sites show little difference between a great street tire and a race tire. Hogwash. That is BS, and again, I think that the people making the claim need to run on better race tires more frequently. A full tread Kumho or Toyo will be noticablly faster than a Falken in Sanford, and Hoosiers work quite well in Laurinburg, Rockingham and at the ESA. Street tires are just a lot less sensitive to all the variables that effect performance.

Rounding to the nearest whole unit:
2002
Tire: 21 drivers/event
Open: 77 drivers/event
Pro: 6 drivers/event

2003:
Tire: 26 drivers/event (small increase)
Open: 77 drivers/event (no change)
Pro: 9 drivers/event (plus 3)

Based on these numbers, I don't see the doom and gloom being predicted by the others.

Some people want to be competitive, but have a light budget, Tire class allows for them to be competitive and not buy race tires!

If we want to get rid of the competitive aspect of TIRE class, then we should just merge it and Novice class call it "I don't give a damn class."

Right now, lets say I'm a novice in a Countour SVT. I show up and win Novice class and head to street tire, all on Firestone Firehawks. Mid way through the season my Firestones give up on me, they are dead, they chunked badly, the wore unevenly, they look awful, so I need to buy new tires. I look at the Tire Rack and see that comparable Firestones will cost about $90 each (215/50-16).

But, I like the autocrossing thing. I'm in TIRE class for the season and want to step it up a bit (because I *do* care about season points, I'd like to remain in the class).

Well, a new set of FIrestones is just going to tear up like the original set, so what's a guy to do?

Upgrade! Yeah, that's the American way! So, I look at the Kumho MX, not quite my size, but I can get a 225/50-16 for $100 a tire, only $40 more. Oh wait, no I can't I'll get thrown out of "street tire" class for driving on these STREET TIRES!

What about a Falken Azenis, Hmm, anohter $15 per tire, I'm up to $115 each now, but those are excluded too.

So, what is better than a Firestone but isn't excluded...

Hey, look, a Bridgesone S03 for a measly $160 each, what a deal, thanks THSCC. Maybe I'll just get a great set of tires and go run with Triad!

OK, I'll cheap out and get the Yokohama AVS100 at $90 each, but is it really any different than the Kumho MX?

Then there are the rich guys (like me) that can afford a shaved S03 if they want it, hmm, I bet that would work nicely...

As Mike says: "At the risk of sounding like a broken record..."

It ain't broken!

Scott

All right, Scott. Good points. I give up We're really not talking about much, if any, problem here.

I will let the other powers that be decide. But it was a fun discussion

I would like to see people step up and run these uber-street tires in open class of their own free will, however, like Scott and most of D-stock did this year. I may well be in DSP on Azenis or MX's myself.

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Any one can make up a story that will suit their purpose. And that is exactly what you did. Very nice story, now tell it the kids before they go to bed.

I will try and make it simple. It is broken and one line shows why. You have people buying certain tires specifically for TIR class, no other reason. There was even one on this list that actually admitted to having them mounted up on spare rims. That was not what TIR was to represent.

Please refer to the THSCC FAQ: Item 2.4
2.4. I don't have fancy tires. Won't I get thrashed by people who do? top

No! We even have a special Street Tire Class for people who don't want to go to the extra expense of buying special autocross tires.


Please go and change that and inform people they do have to buy special autocross tires or they will get thrashed.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

My OEM tires are BFG KDWs that the Tire Rack has (on sale this week) for $122, but I have the opportunity to get equally good/better tires for 20% less. Speaking from a purely financial standpoint, which makes more sense to a beginning autocrosser? I know that you have to pay to play, but it doesn't make sense to shell out more money than you have to ...

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

This thing's getting a little out of hand, but so be it

As far as autocross is concerned, I'm betting that if we switched everyone into one lump class, we'd still all be racing. I think people are pretty hung up on the trophy aspect of classes, and lose site of why we're out there. Granted, people will always like or need some sort of 'proof' that they did something well, but it's never been a major hitter for me.

Sure, I will fight to the end to try to move up one spot at a National event, but that's just the competitive part of racing. As far as the wood is concerned, it becomes a decoration more than anything.

So, for those that are so worried about TIR being changed, is it because you're afraid that the wall ornaments won't be as easily obtained? - AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

Good/better how? The KDW's are much better at handling standing water than Azeni, KD's or MXes, and from what I've heard will last a lot longer. (My MXes lasted 6000 miles, and my most recent Azeni lasted 8000 miles - and they were both about that same price after installation.) Sounds like a good deal to me!



edit: just wanted to add that the D in KDW stands for Dry, so they'd be pretty decent for autox, too... unless you're a very experienced driver going for a national championship.

Well, this might be our first forum topic to reach five pages. And it reached this goal within about three days.

I think that in general everyone is playing nicely with each other. Hopefull it will stay that way.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

I don't think banning tires will make things any more fair than they already are. Even if you force everyone to run 'average' tires, like say 712s, there are going to be people new to the sport that are going to show up with snow tires, or tw600 tires. So now they are going to be thrashed by people with average tires unless they pay to upgrade. The only way it will truly be fair to everyone is if we force everyone to run the crummiest tire possible. Everyone has to replace tires fairly regularly at this sport anyway, and since good tires don't cost $1000 a set, it's not like no one can afford to upgrade. But I think the biggest argument for leaving it alone is that no one in TIR seems to really be complaining about the fairness of 'ringer' tires <shrug>.

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Jonathan
'86.5 Toyota Supra
'89 Porsche 928 GT

Well you could say it was a made up story except it is my story as well as my brothers. Take scott's story and replace Firehawks with Kuhmo 716's and that is about it. After we had THOROUGHLY chunked and flatspotted them we decided it was time to move on to something a little more aggressive. The falken was one of the cheapest tires available (200 for the set), so it was a no brainer. Now I will admit that we have them on a second set of rims, but it just so happens by that time we had decided that autocrossing was something we wanted to do for a while. Also at that time we happen to come upon a set of rims (stock rims that is) for 50$. Since we knew we would eventually move to open class that is why we purchased them, as we would need them eventually anyways. We also didn't feel that we were ready to move to a race tire, and I think *most* would agree that azenis are not hoosiers or victoracers.

My Point: I think scott's story describes a lot of beginners' status. As far as the extra rims....most people who are planning to move to an open class are going to need them anyways. I would also like to state that I have driven the azenis on the street and would have no problems continuing to do so.

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2001 Honda S2000 - SOLD
2012 Boss 302
2003 BMW 330i

Please re-read my post above.

- This isn't about fairness
- This isn't about what people in TIR alone want
- This has nothing to do with ringer tires

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1