TIR Class Proposal

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:27 pm

Notice I didn't say the pure $5. Plus you are being generous. If I stay in PRO it is only about $1's worth :lol:

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

Guys, guys, guys (and gals). Take a breath.

I really dislike the word "ban" and I think the implications that this could impact sponsorship are a bit of a stretch.

All Jim is talking about here is treating a few tires for what they are -- race rubber. Or very nearly. Azenis already violate the "intent" of TIR and have no business wearing a 200 treadwear. They should be less than 140, from my experience, but we know hw those numbers are generated.

Azenis are really no more streetable than Kumhos either. Just cheaper

And please, recognize the real "problem" that we're trying to solve -- the impending death of the open classes (once street tires are as good as race tires), and the ridiculous size that TIR has grown to.

Trust me, something needs to change. The street tire class just continues to grow. When should we do something?

Keith Quistorff · **Posted:** Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:32 pm

Stephen Westerfield wrote:

I think you should compare the Azenis to a street legal "factory" car like an STI or an AWD Porsche. These things come from the factory with insane capabilities in the hands of the right driver. As long as they are on street tires, they are allowed to run in TIR. I am not complaining that they shouldn't be, just saying it comes down to the driver.

The "STI or AWD Porsche" argument only applies if the TIR class was based on raw times. We use PAX times for TIR class to avoid the unfair advantage of a hot car. If anything, hotter cars are at a disadvantage in TIR class, since the PAX system is based on cars prepared to the limits of the respective Open class, including best R-compound tires. Most local autocrossers will place much better in a PAX class with a low PAX car than a high PAX car.

Matthew_Thomson · **Posted:** Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:41 pm

jimpastorius wrote:

You made an extensive modification to you car by adding the Falkens. Given the choice, what would be the very first change you would make to your car? Tires of course. Tires are the most significant modification you can make to one's car.

I'm new to autocrossing but even though tires make an "extensive" difference in your performance I would not consider them to be an extensive MODIFICATION. Modification implies change and either way you look at it your car needs tires. Car had tires before Azenis and still has tires with Azenis so its not a modification. They may be different tires than you had before but how many people replace the tires on the car with the same type the manufacturer shipped the car with. Its also the thing you are going to go through the most often when autocrossing (besides brake pads and gas) so it also should not be considered out of the ordinary that somone would have to *OMG* BUY TIRES. The fact that they are cheap and good should not warrant them being banned from the class. The fact that you can get a set of them for $200 is also reason why they should not be considered an extensive modification (which they arent). The cost also is probably why people in TIR (which are there NOT TO SPEND ALOT OF MONEY) are buying them. They are a readily available, cheap, high performance upgrade.

Also IMHO the reason I see that so many non TIR class runners are complaining is they are losing they're positions in the season point standings to people running stock cars on cheap tires. Looks to me like some EGOs are getting hurt.

Rob Keehner · **Posted:** Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:54 pm

Alright I'm out to STS, everybody happy :wink:

. Guys watch out, my 120hp will sneak up on you. Also, everybody missed my witty post in the shoe thread after all the posts here

.

As far as making tire a class where you get bumped from after trophying so many times, that seems silly. If you did that you could just change the name to Novice2.

Matthew_Thomson · **Posted:** Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:59 pm

yeah.. but technically you can run race tires in novice

Graham Jagger · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:53 am **Posts:** 1718

Well seeing as how we're all throwing in opinions and I'm actually in TIR class and using the dreaded MX tire I want to chime in too :lol:

I bought the MX for the same reason people are buying the Azenis. They are good for autox and cheap (in relative terms). This cheap set for my car cost me $700. The KDs would cost me $1200+. They don't make Azenis for my wheels. Any other tire will cost me more than the MX. So for selfish reasons I obviously don't want them banned.

I am against the tire type ban and would not vote for it. This year you want Azeni, MX, and KD. There are plenty more tires out there that will keep up with these that you haven't listed. So should we all pick the 3 we think are "ringers". When we're done we'll all be riding narrow snow tires...

The MX tires didn't make me a better driver. This is my first year. I got from 0 to wherever it is that I am now from the help of THSCC members, both schools and at events, and seat time.

And if we're going to complain about "ringer" street tires then let's really open it up and put a ban on "ringer" racing tires. No more Hoosiers would go right to the top of the list. After all they are an unfair advantage compared to the Victoracers...

I'm all for the idea of booting people out of TIR class who dominate it and won't voluntarily move to an open class. From my observation TIR has been a great place to start. I planned on 2 years of TIR on street tires and then off to open class.

Graham

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Thu Nov 13, 2003 12:06 am

Graham Jagger wrote:

And if we're going to complain about "ringer" street tires then let's really open it up and put a ban on "ringer" racing tires. No more Hoosiers would go right to the top of the list. After all they are an unfair advantage compared to the Victoracers...

Graham, not to pick on you, but have you ever driven a Hoosier or a Victoracer?

I can tell you the difference, especially at our sites, the Kumho has the advantage. Only Laurinburg there might be a slight difference, and I still won't say that one is better than another, it's just a function of how you want the car to drive. Go to www.scca.com and look at results around the country. Kumho is not having any trouble winning compared to Hoosiers. - AB

Donnie Barnes · **Posted:** Thu Nov 13, 2003 12:57 am

Keith Quistorff wrote:

The "STI or AWD Porsche" argument only applies if the TIR class was based on raw times. We use PAX times for TIR class to avoid the unfair advantage of a hot car. If anything, hotter cars are at a disadvantage in TIR class, since the PAX system is based on cars prepared to the limits of the respective Open class, including best R-compound tires. Most local autocrossers will place much better in a PAX class with a low PAX car than a high PAX car.

To support this, I think my worst Tarheel finish came in my 911 Turbo on street tires. I did better in my Spyder on street tires and Spyder(s) on race rubber (relative to the competition in my class) by leaps and bounds.

--Donnie

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:15 am

Graham Jagger wrote:

And if we're going to complain about "ringer" street tires then let's really open it up and put a ban on "ringer" racing tires. No more Hoosiers would go right to the top of the list. After all they are an unfair advantage compared to the Victoracers...

Graham

That's pretty funny, cause there is no data to back it up at the local level. Take a look at the results for PRO class. That is the only place you will find Hoosiers. Through the course of the year, Kumho has been the winning tire...duh. I beat Mr. Chiles and I had Kumho's and Mr Whipple beat me and my Hoosiers. I am not sure what Mr. Fisher is running, but has been fast and it ain't on Hoosiers. I am not sure if Hoosier has won a THSCC PRO event.

Quote:

I bought the MX for the same reason people are buying the Azenis. They are good for autox and cheap (in relative terms).

And there is the rub about these kinds of tires. You are buying them for AX. TIR class intent was for people that wanted to compete on every day tires. Now we have people buying specific tires for this class. And some having them mounted on additional rims.

Why not run open class?

Graham Jagger · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:53 am **Posts:** 1718

OK I'll respond to both Aaron and Jim on their counter arguments.

Aaron,
I stuck my foot in the water so you go ahead and pick on me all you want. I've got my kevlar jammies on :lol:

No I haven't run R-compounds on my car. But I did go to the SCCA website and looked at the National Championships. I looked in AS, ASL, ASP, ASPL and found Hoosier to be 9 of 10 or 8 of 10 in positions. BSP had more Kumhos in the top 10. In ES Kumho didn't even show up until 22nd place. Seeing as how the National level folks are supposed to be the best and most consistent drivers I used them for my research.

Jim,
I didn't use the club level numbers for PRO class. I used what I stated above. Maybe at the local level there is no difference.

Yes I bought the tires with the primary reasoning being dry grip for autox and price. A reason why a lot of people buy Kumho and Faulken. But they are street legal, more than meet the clubs UTQG rating, and I drive my car every day with these tires. If I wasn't doing autox I would have bought a more expensive tire that has great dry and wet grip. Because I wouldn't be trashing them in a year.

I had planned on going into open class in my 3rd year. Besides what other cars are in AS? I'll just get bumped to SM2. That's why I figured another year in TIR. My 3rd year I'll run R-compounds.

Graham

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:54 am

Graham Jagger wrote:

I didn't use the club level numbers for PRO class. I used what I stated above. Maybe at the local level there is no difference.

Yes I bought the tires with the primary reasoning being dry grip for autox and price. A reason why a lot of people buy Kumho and Faulken.

It is like comparing apples and oranges. Especially trying to compare TIR to Nationals

By the way, Hoosier use to be on the Solo 2 exclusion list, because of its superior performance and limited availability. Other brands have closed the gap and Hoosier comes in almost every size.

An exclusion list simply means that certain makes and model of tires are not premitted in the TIR class. You can run in AS, GS, HS or whatever appropriate class. What difference does that make? Additionally, it evens up the playing field in TIR. No longer will it be the tire that wins.

Of all the THSCC classes, the TIR class is on only one that is decided by which tire you run. That goes against the very nature of the class. It is a shame that TIR has gone that way.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:59 am

Ok, Here is an idea...

1. Go ahead and ban some tires from TIR (stay with me here...)

2. Place EVERYONE in open classes. No NOV, TIR or PRO magnetics, etc.

3. Go ahead and publish the results and award trophies for NOV, TIR and PRO as well as the regular open classes. Entry into NOV is voluntary and goes by the existing NOV rules. Entry into TIR is based upon your tire choice. If your tires qualify you are in. Entry into PRO is voluntary or maybe PRO just goes away.

4. If PRO goes away then just replace PRO with trophies for top PAX (like PRO already does)

What this means is that you could walk away with multiple trophies at a single event. It bumps up open class numbers. People can run what tires they want, but if the tire is on the exclude list they don't get included in the TIR results (R tires of course would be excluded from TIR). People don’t have to worry about “I ran TIR today and lost, but if I had run open class I would have won a trophy” issues.

STS/STX would kind of get the shaft as their inherint street tire PAX would preclude them from being included into the TIR class automatically unless you somehow automatically PAXed them at a *SP PAX which would be a headache for those in the bus.

If you are God's gift to driving you could win the NOV, TIR, Open and PRO trophies all at a single event. But you couldn't run in NOV the next time

Kevin Allen · **Joined:** Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm **Posts:** 3479

Now that's funny...

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Thu Nov 13, 2003 12:32 pm

Kevin Allen wrote:

Now that's funny...

Hehe, Well I only intended the "God's gift" part to be funny.

Hope that is what you are laughing at.

Seriously what do people think about the rest of the idea? I expect the biggest problem might be that the existing timing and scoring software may not be able to handle this.

It would result in more trophies being given out at the end of the day, but is that a bad thing? Would any victories be hollow ones? IMHO I don't think so as you still have to do well in your open class or PAX quite high enough to walk away with a trophy and if you ban certain tires from TIR class it could satisfy those that complain about "Tire du Jour" issues. People could compete and compare their results in various ways and maybe even go home happy with something to hang on the wall.

The core idea would be that people would be in open class. Other trophies are just PAX related. I know some people hate PAX, but hey, if you don't want to accept one that you might win or respect someone elses PAX trophy, that is your choice.

PS: This idea doesn't actually help me at all as it would move someone like Aaron who might have run Pro next year into Open STS.

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