THSCC Forums

[sarcasm= I will have to tell you that I love this philosophy. Lets ban good tires that meet “street specs”. Hopefully, it will catch on and other clubs will start to doing it as well. This will finally solve the problem by sending a message to evil tire companies such as Kuhmo and Falken that we are simply not interested in good tires. We certainly wouldn’t want to encourage tire companies to continue to push the boundaries. /End Sarcasm]

Seriously though, by banning these tires other tires will then become “the best” giving the people who run them an unfair advantage. It is a never ending cycle, what will banning these prove? Besides I think most the complaints in this thread are coming from people who don’t even run in the TIR class. So now I could be faced with two choices run in STX or open, until I finish off the rest of our azenis. Either choice will result in uneven playing field.

To be honest I was planning on moving out of TIR after next season, but it looks like I will be forced out now.

<-- Slightly biased opinion from someone who runs azenis in TIR

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2001 Honda S2000 - SOLD
2012 Boss 302
2003 BMW 330i

If you read the posts on this specific topic, then you are guilty of misquoting. No one mentioned the term "ban" in conjuction with TIR. We have gone there before and it is pretty much a forgone conclusion TIR does serve a very useful purpose.

No value add? Are you high? Where is the value add in the TIR class when the top people in that class all have dedicated race tires? The use of raw numbers is fine and does support your statement. But the percentages based upon your numbers show that the class is not that strong. After the dedicated race tire crowd, there is a huge drop off.

The value add would be to even up the TIR class and make it the class we tout it to newcomers to be. No more, no less.

The concept of a person moving from NOV into TIR thinking it is a fair place to compete and think they have a shot at a piece of wood is a sham. To compete you need a set of tires. Plain and simple.

So you impact 20% of the people for the good the remaining 80%. That seems to me like a pretty good value add. And those 20% impacted have a multitude of options. The other 80% option's are not as great.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

But what happens when there's a list of [BANNED] tires in TIR class? Wouldn't there be a *new* ringer tire (Kumho Ecsta Supra 712 for example) that people would discover through either trial-and-error or pure dumb luck? Seemingly any decent directional pattern would be grippier than the Firestone Firehawk all season radials that I have used at the couple of events that I participated in this season. Or is this "fantastic" tire the ideal prototype of what TIR-opponents desire? I've envisioned the street tire class as being the JV of the THSCC -- run a couple of events as a novice, finish out the remainder of the season and maybe the next in TIR where you learn how to drive and the limits of your vehicle, and then go to open class. YMMV.

But for a solution, how about moving those that win plaques in TIR be forced to move into Open class, at least for several events, a la Novice?

Also, to address another "concern" about people changing tires at/before events, some of us are running non-stock size rims (BLING factor = high), and to run in a PAX class, we need to go back to the OEM size wheels, FWIW.

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

The debate as to where you draw the line for the tire exclusion list seems more of an administrative task than a good enough reason to not change the rules in TIR. Once we decide which way to go with TIR, then the officers can sit down and figure a reasonable way to deal with that aspect. The difficulty in coming up with the list shouldn't discourage the rule change, if it's what we decide to do.

There will always be a tire that maximizes performance given the restrictions we may put into TIR. But, I doubt any one 'true' street tire will give a huge advantage over the next. Sure, you can run your potenza s-03's against guys running ectsa's, but it won't give the advantage like running Azenis against ecsta' will. Plus, I'm not sure how most people would feel about burning up a set of $600 street tires for a season of auto-x. I know I wouldn't want to - so if I wanted to run grippier tires, I'd buy the azenis, a cheapo set of rims and run open. Like I do now.

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www.ncvw.org
1993 VW Corrado VR6 - DSP15 (RIP)
1986 MB 190E 2.3L 16v - STX (SOLD)
1997 BMW M3 3.2L - BS for now

I will stick my neck out here: If you want to be competitive in THSCC TIR you pretty much need one brand of tire. I think the data supports this statement. As with any statistic, you toss out the anomalies to get a clear picture.

Therefore, the THSCC TIR class is no different than running Nationals. To run Nationals, you need one make of tire to be competitive. The only difference is the cost of those tires. But to play in the big time always costs more money than playing local. Ask any golfer.

But take a look at the THSCC PRO class. For any given event, you will see all different brands of tires. This is the most competitive class we have and probably one of the most varied tire classes.

My proposal is an attempt to bring TIR back to the people and away from the elitist...raise up and fight the proletariat.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Time to ring in with my opinion/vote/noise/whatever:

I think lots of people run TIR because their friend and/or an officer told them to run there. The potential for a trophy is actually less in TIR than in lots of the Stock and SP classes.

I think it would be easier to make the open classes whole again by removing PRO. I've always thought PRO was better at stroking egos than anything else. Many people I've talked to on this subject (running pro vs open) feel similarly, that their victories in open feel somewhat hollow when the good drivers have all abandoned open for PRO. Maybe some people who want good competition more than wood to take home will move to open from TIR if the top drivers are there to measure against.

Like Scott, I have a _very_ hard time supporting any measure that makes the Azenis illegal in TIR. It _is_ a streetable tire for this area and a surprising number of people run them every day. Also, maintaining an exclusion list will be a logistical nightmare and all sorts of perceptions of favoritism could very easily occur. Finally, an exclusion list definitely limits the places BizDev can go to seek sponsorship. As an example I would think it would be very difficult to go to any BFG dealer and ask for sponsorship/deals if the club were to outlaw the KD.

--Kevin H.

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2003 WRX (again!)

Just my thoughts, but I think the idea of banning certain tires in the TIR class is not the way to fix a problem that I don't think really exists. There don't seem to be a lot of complaints from the people running in TIR about those specific tires not being fair anyway. As far as the argument that there is a lack of competitors in the open classes, I can see that. I think this is an issue of people taking the initiative to know what their true intentions are when it comes to autocrossing. If you are out there just to have fun and you are just running your stock car, by all means, TIR is for you. If you have extensive mods done to your car and you are still running in TIR, well I think there is an issue there. Why go through all the trouble of doing that stuff just to compete with Joe Blow in the family truckster, step up to the plate and run in the open class. For me, I would like to take autocrossing more seriously in the future. Think back to when you learned to ride a bike. Putting Azenis on our integra for me was like adding a set of training wheels. I was all over the place (thinking back to the comment about my run made over the loud speaker at RBC Center.....out there "man-handling" the course) when I ran on my regular tires. With the grip of the Azenis, I am able to work on other things like steering, breaking, accelerating, etc. When I feel like I am comfortable with these elements in my car, and I have a plaque or two under my belt running in TIR, I will make that move to the open class. Then I will start to work on my car and doing the mods and such that will make me more competitive there. I think this is the real issue. People need to judge what they want to get out of their autocrossing experience and go after it in a way that is fair to their competition. If you guys running in the open classes think your class is a little shallow, pay attention to the guys in TIR. If you see someone that really doesn't belong there, let us know. Azenis are street legal tires that meet the tread depth requirements, there shouldn't be an issue there. I think you should compare the Azenis to a street legal "factory" car like an STI or an AWD Porsche. These things come from the factory with insane capabilities in the hands of the right driver. As long as they are on street tires, they are allowed to run in TIR. I am not complaining that they shouldn't be, just saying it comes down to the driver. Our members should know their capabilities and where they need to be competing. It shouldn't be an issue of the tires as long as they meet the requirements of the class.

Sorry for being so long winded.

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Stephen Westerfield
2009 Infiniti M35 | 2007 Honda Fit Sport | 2005 Ford Mustang GT |2000 GMC Sierra |1992 Acura Integra LS | Super Westerfield Bros Acura Integra

I agree with the suggestion that people "trophy-out" of TIR class rather than try to enforce street tire choices. Perhaps for every TIR trophy that driver must run two subsequent events in his open class. He can either stay there or return to TIR after the two events. That should have the desired effect of pushing competition into the open classes and opening up TIR.

I do think that Tech should check that tires are generally road-worthy in TIR class.

Simon

Hey, great minds do think alike! That's what I said on pg. 1 of this argument...

Not a typo - I mean that classes should not be formed based on driver skills. SCCA classes are based on car - regardless of the skill of the driver.

Obviously the best driver within the class should win!

Thank you for proving why we need an exclusion list in TIR. You made an extensive modification to you car by adding the Falkens. Given the choice, what would be the very first change you would make to your car? Tires of course. Tires are the most significant modification you can make to one's car.

And why did you choose Falkens? Any one in TIR class want to chime in? We all know why. Because they give you a very big advantage over other competitors. The other competitors are out there skating around and running over things. I challenge you to ask a novice who moved into TIR thinking it was a level playing field, what are Falkens, MX's or KD's. And better yet, where would they buy them. And even better, does one of the 5 sizes fit their car.

And the final question you have to ask yourself, did your driving improve or are the tires simply covering your mistakes. When I started 4 years ago I heeded the advice to run one year on street tires. I ran my RE71's until they were wore out. The advice was when I got within 2 seconds of the race tires, only then consider switching to race tires. That is within 2 seconds on RE71's. When I tell people they should run street tires for a year to learn control, input and feedback I am thinking of tires like the RE71's as being at the top of street tires. My bad....

So the other value add to an exclusion list is to let the new person know, if they switch to one of these tires, it is a big jump for them. Maybe if they get within 1 seond of those tires, they should switch.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

I re-read and Jim is correct. There has been no proposal to ban tire class, just Pro and Novice, and certain tires from TIRE class (my apologies to all that I may have steered wrong).

Cliff notes: It isn't broke, I don't think it needs fixing.

That said, the more I look at it, and the more posts I see from the people who actually run/have run in TIRE class (that is the topic of this thread, not Pro or Novice - I will save those discussions for a later date), the more I think that we are trying to create a problem where there is none.

I think peer pressure would be a better solution to any issues that people may have. If someone runs all 8 events and dominates all 8, then they should be encouraged to move to open class, we shouldn't force it on them, or change the class so they are ineligible.

There will always be people that cherry pick a class, it's unavoidable, if they chose to do it in TIRE class then so be it, it's likely they won't have many friends or much fun at the events.


snip: lots of irrelevant stuff deleted.
Scott

Ok... I have no problem getting rid of a tire exclusion list for a 'trophy out of TIR' idea. My thought is that if you trophy in 3 out of the 8 events in the course of 2004, you will be required to move to an open class in 2005. That way, people get what they want for that year, and 'progress' in the following year, thus eliminating the classes that have few or no competitors.

The other nice thing about the 3 out of 8 is that it doesn't hurt the guy who comes to only 2 events a year, or brings a different car for a couple of events. It only affects those that are dedicated to the class.

This obviously doesn't apply to the night series, just the 'day' events. So even if you are a TIR person that gets moved, you can still get your TIR fix at the night series, for there are only two classes there (TIR and OPEN).

The only stipulation with this is that once you are moved, you stay moved for the entire year... Then you can come back the following year if you chose. My guess is that after a year in Open, you probably won't want to. This would be a lot easier to coordinate, and doesn't shut anyone out with only 4 months until the season starts.

- AB

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'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

You have now taken a very simple proposal and turned into a nightmare. Try and write up in the rules for TIR what you are stating...move here, move there, turn around and do the hokey pokey.

"To compete in the TIR class your tires have a treadwear rating greater than 140 and the following tires are not permitted....

No additions to the list will be made during the course of the season. "

Simple to police by the competitors in TIR. Any upheld protest results in the driver being scored in the appropriate open class.

I will bet a year's worth of trophies, that no one would try and find a ringer tire for TIR class.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Wow that's 5 dollars in trophies, are you sure you wanna risk it.

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2006 Civic Si - #24 HS for 2015

2005 GMC Sierra
1991 318is Garage Ornament