THSCC Forums

That would work except for the fact that Aziens and Such are just fine to drive to an event on and I am sure there are several sts and st people who proabably change to the Competition tires the day before the event.

But I agree Ron I have yet to see the problem we are trying to fix...

_________________
David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

Well I'll asume the one you refer to is that guy in the little red vette...
Bingo! I was fresh out of Novice class and no one was in AS and saw the bumping ladder into SM2 to become food for the sharks
OR
Go to TIR class.





Funny you should mention that. I talked about that to Miles earlier this year and have had a few conversations since about it. But he wants to compete in PRO class. I don't blame him. So I asked if he would do it for a non-points event for fun. I even tried to goad him into it telling him he could use his Hoosiers so he might keep up with me on my ringer MX tires Miles was going to ask Dan if he would run his WRX in AS for the same event so there would be 3 of us. Miles couldn't make the events so we dropped the idea for now.

So I am not totally opposed to the idea of AS at this time. However, I have 2 real issues here with this thread and the approach...

First, the thread was misrepresented as a rant on ringer tires in TIR class to make it fair. When the real reason, according to Mike, was that the issue is a need to boost Open Class participation and TIR class is where the people need to come from. I understand you want to use the so-called 3 ringer tires as the 1st solution but that is not how it came across. I won't even get into how easy it is to get around the 3 tire ban and stay in TIR while you try and force me into Open Class. That is way too easy to defeat.

Second, you want to boost Open Class. Especially ones like A-stock which are empty. Not 1 officer has approached me at an event or via email to ask if I would consider voluntarily moving to AS to help the club rebuild. But understanding I'd get bumped into SM2 until AS grew. As Scott pointed out it is a hard sell. But you could have asked. It wouldn't have hurt that bad. And if it really helps the club that much I would seriously consider doing it starting Jan/04. What a shame no one took the most simple and direct route of asking...

Graham

[quote="Graham Jagger]
Second, you want to boost Open Class. Especially ones like A-stock which are empty. Not 1 officer has approached me at an event or via email to ask if I would consider voluntarily moving to AS to help the club rebuild. But understanding I'd get bumped into SM2 until AS grew. As Scott pointed out it is a hard sell. But you could have asked. It wouldn't have hurt that bad. And if it really helps the club that much I would seriously consider doing it starting Jan/04. What a shame no one took the most simple and direct route of asking...
Graham[/quote]

Everyone has their own opinion. I agree with Mike and Donnie's view on the Open class in THSCC. Plus I think there are a fair number of people taking advantage of the TIR class to stroke their egos at the expense of individuals like you.

I did a quick review of the results. Since getting bumped out of Nov, you would never of placed last in SM2. As a matter of fact, I believe you would have trophied in the last event in SM2. A final accomplishment for an AS car in SM2. Did you get a trophy for such fine driving at the last event? Neither did I. But I did not deserve one.

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Everyone has their own opinion. I agree with Mike and Donnie's view on the Open class in THSCC. Plus I think there are a fair number of people taking advantage of the TIR class to stroke their egos at the expense of individuals like you.

I did a quick review of the results. Since getting bumped out of Nov, you would never of placed last in SM2. As a matter of fact, I believe you would have trophied in the last event in SM2. A final accomplishment for an AS car in SM2. Did you get a trophy for such fine driving at the last event? Neither did I. But I did not deserve one.

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

FYI Only since I personally don't care how this effort comes out as long as it "works" for the competitors. Ron's statement regarding FUN should be the operative goal.

Back in my younger dumbier days in California and in North Carolina I drove hundreds of miles to/from events on my Hoosier Autocrosser Bias ply tires on my Lotus. Not fun and NOT recommended (especially in Thunderstorms). In fact the ONLY time I didn't drive the car to/from an event on the competition tires (usually Hoosiers or the earlier Yokohama 001R's) was the 1986 Nationals. We took two cars and carried the Hoosiers in the 84 Nissan. The tires had already been driven to/from Charlotte for an SCCA Solo II Divisionals. They even did a few parade laps on the banking reaching 100 mph. Then they won ASP in the Pro Solo and the Nationals. A tire trailer wasn't practical . . . no place for a hitch and no room in the car for all four tires, even without a passenger. No money for a tow vehicle for the car . . . plus I didn't want a truck anyway. There were times when the car was also a commute car but not when the competition tires were Hoosiers. Kelly used to commute her Lotus on tires that were the equivalent of Kumhos in their day.

By the way, I changed to my beat up set of OEM GY's in my driveway for the event tonight. But I'm running Open anyway due to my loud mouth about PAX (plus I don't have magnetics for TIR and do for FS )

I remember a rule in California that certain classes couldn't trailer to events. . . so they trailered to the event neighborhood and drove the last few blocks.

The point of all this war story telling is that whatever the rule or intent, someone will want to do something different and find a legit way.

_________________
Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Hmmm...by that measure, that would mean my younger, dumber days were just last season.

This year was much more pleasant, since my tires came to events on a trailer - thanks Rob!!!

Wow! You're right. You got me on that one. I've never really compared my times to the SM2 crowd. Maybe it wouldn't hurt so bad...

Ok. So Jan/04 I change my permanent registration for 04 to AS class to start building it up. Until someone else shows up I'll deal with the SM2 crowd. Ok all you souped up turbo Miatas, move over

Graham

This argument again? I just don't get it, but if the club starts legislating street tire class so that I'm required to run on some high treadwear, non-performance related tire, then I'll move on to open class with my STREET TIRES.

So what's going to occur when someone shows up with a type-r that came with some outstanding 140 treadwear tires that are as good, if not better than azenies? What to do then?

How about open class? Maybe we pull hoosiers out of that lineup, I've heard they're the tire to have in open class.

Anyway, my position is that this class is what it is and is obviously working well based on the number of folks in it each event. If we're trying to align ourselves the SCCA, then so be it. I'm done ranting, this subject rubs me raw.

phil

FYI, I read a handful of posts and then replied. I have since read every post and would like to offer some more comments with a clearer mind.

Leave tire as is with one modification. If you are in the top five in SEASON points, it's time to move on.

I see a value in leaving NOVICE & PRO as is.

Here's my story of the past two seasons:

I started last year in a Type-R, which I believe to be THE best stock car out there. I did well, ending the year fourth in points. However, what I learned this year after driving the crx si that the ITR made up for a lack of driving skill. While it's debateable that I may have done just as well in open class compared to TIRE, I was comfortable competing against the many different cars and folks in the class. I now have the confidence to move on, which is a decision I have been leaning towards since Rockingham when Scott asked me about it.

What I have learned from this discussion is that the other 25 or so folks in TIRE should get their opportunity to be at the top of the class and there are a few of us in TIRE who should VOLUNTARILY move on. But I don't see a need to change the system. Scott is correct, if we just show some guidence and leadership, I think we can reduce the TIRE class a bit and start populating the open classes. Over-n-out!

Phil... planning on getting spanked by two ladies and wondering what the wife will say!

Give her a little time and you might be getting spanked by 3 ladies...

Scott

Well, if anyone is still reading this thread (I know I still am!) I would like to relate a discussion I had this weekend.

I was talking with Robert Plank, who came and ran the VW event, and he was wondering how he would have done in the regular event in BS open. He was on street tires.

Turns out there was no one in BS, so he would have bumped to AS. No one in AS so on to ASP, then on to CP? or something like that.

Then I pointed out that at Sunday's event there were FOUR other BS cars in street tire -- Jonathan Rodriguez, Rick Butters, Mitch Moore, and Gregory McGann.

"Who are those guys?" Robert asked. Don't you think it would be neat to see Robert, Jonathan, Rick, Mitch, and Gregory duke it out head-to-head in BS next year? I think it would be a great one to watch, since their times were only separated by a few seconds. "Street tires" or "race tires", the competition would be close!

So c'mon people, get your fellow experienced TIR competitors and let's go invade open class. I promise you will have a great time competing against people in similar cars.

I'm going back to DSP next year because I have more in common with the typical DSP guy than I do with most of the national-minded people in PRO. PRO is a state of mind, just like TIR is a state of mind. I agree TIR is basically a "stepping stone". It's not intended to be that way, nor is it written down like that. But after a season in TIR, come on out to open and build some friendships with your real competitors.

I doubt there will be any rule changes, but I will be really happy if this discussion shows some people the light, and I hope our open classes thrive next year!

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

On the National level the very same discussion happens. Like the THSCC TIR class, Nationals is pretty much a spec tire event. Yes, there are some exceptions to the rules, but if what to be competitive, you will need Hoosiers.

Since we are not SCCA aligned, we have the option to create our own classes and the rules associated with them to encourage competition and participation. Even if we were SCCA aligned, the SCCA encourages local classes.

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

You are proposing making TIR some kind of novice class. We have one of those already. What if I bring my Impala SS out and do not want to mess with FS points? I am not allowed to run in TIR?

I fail to see the confidence arguement. You gained confidence by staying away from good competition and using your advantage in tires to beat up on people?

By remaining in TIR, you lost a year getting the chance to compete against two of the very best GS drivers around. You only get better by competing against the best. The opportunity to run against Mary and Donna (Donna and Mary) will only make you a better driver.

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

When I first joined, I ran tire class for about a year and then got R1's and moved to Open class. I did it because I was tired of slipping around and wanted to improve my skill and because I'm a masochist and like getting my butt kicked every month by Jim and Eric and Jonathan and..........(anybody who showed up). I got better though and my driving started improving. My biggest problem now is no competition in my class. I started out with Les, but he got ADD with cars and bought a BS car, and then an FS car. (I'm waiting to see what he shows up with next) Then Tom, then Jack..... There are a plethora of ES cars in TIR class that I would like to see come to OPEN class. Hell, I would agree to run my "cheater" Azenis that I use on the street if that would encourage them. Anyway, I'm just in it for FUN, but it is better when I drive well.

Rob

No problem Phil with the tow, I'm hoping some of the FTD mojo rubs off on my tires, cause it don't rub off on me.

I have to agree that it would be fun if all of us switched to BS. I have decided to run BS next year with street tires. From reading this thread though, I guess that my tires are not really street tires. They are Bridgestone S02's with a treadwear of 140, a really stiff sidewall and just enouth tread to be pass a car inspection.

I hope rest of the BS stock cars in TIR will join me.

_________________
Mitch Moore