THSCC Forums

"Anybody who gives up on a skill based activity when they first get started simply because the experienced folk are better probably isn't really interested in the activity."

I don't disagree with you at all.. however it was nice to have a place to play and felling like I at least had chance no matter how slim after winning the novice class and getting bumped out.

_________________
David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

Exactly! The people who come out to a few events, get whupped by experienced people, then quit "beacuse those guys are too fast" will always exist. Any attempt to hang on to those types of members will be doomed to fail.

Sorry, this is very peripheral to this thread.

--Kevin H.

_________________
2003 WRX (again!)

David,

Believe me, if drivers with more skill than "you" are running in TIR, whatever the tire rule, you don't have any more chance of beating them on equal tires than if they had stickies and you had all seasons (assuming PAX doesn't significantly favor your class). The only thing you know for sure, if you are in the same class, was that the difference wasn't because you had crappy tires compared to them.

"Winning" a "weak" class doesn't prove anything to me. Thats sort of like me feeling good about being top raw time in my CM car when the only other fully prepared cars were in Street Prepared. Duh.

My attitude has always been, "learn how to catch the fast guys". Start with narrowing the gap and progress from there. Then go to a tougher class and try to work to the top of it. Then get "old" and try to stay in the Nationals Trophies. Then ????

_________________
Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

All True Dick but that was not what were really talking about They want to bump people into open who are running aziens... ok do that fine then do that and most of these guys that will be running aziens in an open class and they will probably be running aginst them sleves if they are not in either DS , BS, or ES and then they will want to run ST and cant so then they will not show up or they will not put thier aziens on and still run in the Street Tire class and we know have a rule that is doing nothing and open class's with no participation.

_________________
David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

Then it's time to lose your mind and chase your wife around the house naked .

PS Aaron, I switched to HS open and I'm awaiting the entry of your Civic, If you want to be the best you've got to beat the best, so I'd love to have your run in HS. Unless you've got a set of hoosiers for it or something sitting around that you're gunna run just to cream me .

_________________
2006 Civic Si - #24 HS for 2015

2005 GMC Sierra
1991 318is Garage Ornament

Rob, don't worry about it this weekend. I'm driving Joel's car at the night series and not going to the Sunday event. We can do the head to head at a night series or other event next year - AB

_________________
'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

My vote:

I'd support the tire exclusion list in TIR. I would vote to eliminate PRO. I vote to keep NOV like it is.

Novice is a specialized class, but I think it has very valid reasons for existence and doesn't pose any serious threat to any other classes.

People running extremely sticky tires in TIR (whether it is because they are cheap or not!) *can* compete in Open, so they should. End of story.

I was planning on switching to PRO myself (and still will if it exists) *because* there are hardly any cars showing up in CS. I think Chris is probably good enough to move to PRO, too, leaving even less cars there. But if we eliminated PRO then I'd have Eric to chase in open even when entries were thin (not that I dominate the folks I've been racing now, but I have won the last two larger events in CS).

I think if you show up in a late model Miata on Falkens then you have a *real* chance of trophying in the above scenario if you are a good driver (and I mean with NO other prep!). Yes, even with Eric, me, Chris, Kenny Keel, Bill Gratton, and other CS regulars there. So why run TIR?

Open class numbers pretty much suck. It is time to work toward fixing it.


--Donnie

Well, since for some reason he doesn't want to talk smack right now:

Aaron's going to kick... your... ***.

Hey, maybe I should enter the wife's automatic Civic some time? Just have to go back to the stock rear bar... and maybe I should put the stock tires back on it (currently on 712's)?

See... we went from no competition to a lot, all in an open class - AB

_________________
'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S

I think I can take out Aaron's trash in HS the same as you did in STS Kevin .

_________________
2006 Civic Si - #24 HS for 2015

2005 GMC Sierra
1991 318is Garage Ornament

Here is my take on this.

How many people from the TIR class will go to STS or STX? I think 99.9% of the ones that can. I would rather throw $40 into my honda civic for some offset camber bushings and play in STS then play against other cars on race tires. Thinking that, I looked through in 2003 results and picked cars out of the Top 10 in TIR class that would move to something other then STS/X. I can tell you that if you did not get top 10 in TIR class, you have NO chance of trophying in open class.

Pretty much every event would have a decent CS, BS, AS, and ES driver added into the open class mix, but thats it. All the other cars in the Top10 in TIR are either DS,GS, or HS cars. All that would go to STS or STX. Will it *fix* the open classes to add 1 driver PER SEASON into the classes?

I think all eliminating TIR class would do is create a huge STS and STX class and not fix any other "open" classes and I don't see a point in that.

In my first season of autox, I ran my WRX on the stock street tires in TIR. The reason I did that, was that I didn't want to spend $$ on race tires just yet as I didn't know whether it was worth it. I did well in TIR and had a lot of good competition and that got me more involved in the sport. I also learned a LOT about driving on the street tire. A lot more then if I had gotten a set of stickies right off the bat. If I had shown up in the stock WRX on my stock tires and had to run in DS against shawn whipple on kumhos, and gotten my butt whooped by 3 seconds, I would have definetly have been discouraged. The fact that I got to come out and compare my car to other cars on street tires as well, was what made me come back and compete again.

-Tom
rambling......

I will start by saying there is NO way I read all 8 pages of postings on this but I did read enough to get an idea of what was being discussed.

First, some history.
We arbitrarily picked a tread wear rating when we first set this up.

The idea was to give people a class to run in that did not want to buy "race tires".

So, what does all this mean. The implication of street tire classes was "run what you brung". In other words, run your daily driver tires at the autocross. With this in mind here is MY input on a change (if needed). Note, it would have to be self policed.

No changing of wheels/ tires for the autocross. You MUST run the same tires at the event that you use on the street. No, this does not eliminate soft tires BUT the person running them will be buying tires more often now won't they? Kind ofeliminates (or reduces at a minimum) one of the financial benefits of running in street tire class. And NO, THSCC wil NOT police this. Its up to competitors to behave!

As for the bigger question, is there a need for a change? I have run few events this year but frankly in all the posts I don't see a problem. Let me summarize what I think I have read:

Street Tire class is getting big.

Open classes are getting smaller

Fast people on sticky tires are winning.

Do I have it right? So, where is the problem?? Class sizes always seem to grow and shrink. So??


Folks, I believe we are loosing sight of the real, final goal (or at least what it used to be). Autocrossing should be (gasp) FUN!! As long as folks are having FUN then everything is good.


As for Pro, Novice, etc, did I miss the reason for getting rid of those classes? They were created for folks to (I know, I am repeating myself) go have FUN. Pro so they didn't continuously beat up on their friends in open, novice to give new folks a place to "get up to speed".

From what I've seen this all appears to be working just fine. It doesn't appear to be broken.

Ron

Hey Honey, I am going to buy some special street tires so I can win in TIR class....

That is like the kid on the JV team whose parents bought them the special shoes in an attempt to make them faster

Come on people...only two more pages to go.

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

And before I offend the TIR people with the excluded tires...I laugh at myself the most. I have some very, very expensive pieces of wood hanging on the wall

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

You know, of all the propositions (sp?) for TIR class I think I like Ron's the best.

If you want to run in TIR, run what you brung. I don't think there are people currently changing tires and running in TIR are there? If so, there shouldn't be.

-Tom