THSCC Forums

ok, back on topic.

WE NEED MORE MENTORS!

right now we have to double up novices to a mentor. this is not ideal. step up people, its not hard. you only need to ride w/ them once and if youre nice let them ride with you once.

Heh... sometimes this helps minimize toe issues with bent tie rods as well!

Novice Mentoring:

- I will gladly take two Novices, but we may have to try to work it such that they work different heats so I can hit one in Line A, and the other in Line B

Oh, and I won't be there Sunday. Sorry Dan and PJ

- dow

yes, i gotta win that class while i can. pretty unlikely though :/

The evo school instructors are fond of saying when asked Rodney's question: "the line, is the line, is the line..." It doesn't matter if you are driving a gokart or a dumptruck, the quickest line through the course will be the same. However as Emmie says the inputs and reactions to them to stay on that line are highly vehicle dependent. Emmie, yes the Celica is a turning fool, Tim Aro, Brian Priebe and Jr. Johnson all spun it their first run! With the Celi it's a game of toss and catch. That Mini isn't too shabby either!
I'd be more than happy to double up mentoring.

_________________
SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.

I'd like to help with mentoring, but I don't feel qualified -- not this year. I'll teach pretty much anybody to ride any motorcycle around a track fast and safely, and I've done instructor at SCCA driver schools, but... until I can convince myself that I know what I'm doing on an autocross course, I don't think I have any business trying to instruct others.

Sure, I have plenty of autocross experience, but the peak of it was about 20 years ago, and even then I was only competing for best of bottom three in the glory days of FS. I've learnt a whole bunch since then(*), and I really surprised myself with how much better I am now than back then(**), but I still feel like I don't really know what I'm doing. Maybe I do know what I'm doing, but if I don't also feel like I do then I won't make a good mentor.

But keep an eye on me, and if I do seem like I (finally) have the hang of this sport, keep me in mind either for next year or if you add another school later this year.

I'll be hanging around on Saturday playing pit bunny for Kit, and to see if I pick up anything myself from osmosis. No doubt I'll end up helping in some form or another -- I can't imagine not doing so -- but I don't think mentor is one of those forms.

(*) which only goes to demonstrate that I used to suck.
(**) QED.

_________________
Martyn Wheeler
AXing Kit's '05 Mazda 3, #29 HStock
(when The Gonzo Symphonic allows)

This is like the third time I have gotten this response when I said I wasn't coming (if that is what you meant). IIRC, Kevin Allen is the 2x Top Gun trophy winner. I would be more afraid of him in STU than anyone else.

Regardless, I apologize for not being there to help Sunday. Hopefully, I can instruct well enough on Saturday that all the Novices there will be Pros come Sunday.

- dow

I'm glad Brian brought this point up. What is the official position on novice abuse? Do I have to bring any special tools?

Simon

Having raced a Formula Vee and ridden all sorts of motorcycles on the track from cruisers to 250GP bikes, I'd have to dispute that. A good line is a good line, sure, and there may be a 95% best line that will work for any car, but the best line depends heavily on power to grip ratio. Infinite cornering ability and limited acceleration (FV, 250GP(*)) often requires an earlier apex and more classical line to generate corner exit speed, while the opposite (cruiser bike) requires a slower entry and much later apex to generate corner exit speed. The Roebling turn 4/5 line in a Vee is completely different from any other SCCA class.

Yes, I'm taking my examples from a full racetrack setting rather than an autocross. But any time that traction (cornering and/or acceleration) is a factor, that will still apply. It'll be less noticeable on the autocross course, but this is a sport of minute advantages and it will utlimately show on the clock.

I haven't thought through the implications for slaloms yet. My gut reaction is that the TA is a whole lot different through a slalom on rcomps than on 460-treadwears, not just in feel but in subtleties of line as well, but I haven't figured out a theoretical analysis of it yet.


(*) Yes, a 250GP bike has limited acceleration... relative to cornering ability. It takes off like a rocket, sure, but what it does in the corners is unreal.

_________________
Martyn Wheeler
AXing Kit's '05 Mazda 3, #29 HStock
(when The Gonzo Symphonic allows)

A vehicle where the "traction circle doesn't apply? Man I'd love to drive one of those!

_________________
Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

I know you know I was exaggerating, but I'll answer anyway...

Cornering a Vee is more about keeping momentum up and the weird suspension happy than anything else. On slicks, there just is no possible way to influence the rear traction with torque. Sure, weight transfer has an effect, but with so little power it's more of a Traction Pear than a Traction Circle -- you can't even influence a slide with weight transfer, you have so little power (back off, on the other hand, and that swing axle in the back...). I hear there are some cars where you actually have to brake for Turn 1 at Roebling...

Cornering a 250GP bike is more limited by the rider's ability to force themselves to lean it far enough than anything else. Again, traction is so high that you can be on the power stupidly early. It took me quite a few laps to realise that you barely have to brake at all for the first turn on VIR South... and of course a lot more laps to think about actually trying it, especially on someone else's bike.

Perhaps I should have said, "Vehicles where braking slows you down."

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Martyn Wheeler
AXing Kit's '05 Mazda 3, #29 HStock
(when The Gonzo Symphonic allows)

Feeling rusty is what has prevented me from stepping up as a Novice Mentor. I wanted to get an event back under the belt before I stepped up, but if you guys are that tight on numbers, sign me up.

_________________
Not spectacular just decent.
I'm not sure what I'm driving.
Maybe an ITR in DS.
Or half-assed STX prepped 330.

I'd have to agree with Martyn on this one. You are not going to use the *exact* same line depending on what car your are in. I think reading between the lines of what the evo instructors were saying perhaps leads to the conclusion that the best line through a course will be very similar from car to car effectively "looking" the same. However, when you are trying to eek out those last few tenths and hundredths, there will have to be concessions made for the current platform.



Sorry Martyn, but I'd have to disagree with you on this one. While 250GP bikes (and most bikes for that matter) are capable of unreal acceleration, their ultimate cornering ability is actually somewhat limited due to the *tiny* contact patch of their tires. Any decent racing car along with very good street cars on sticky rubber can out-corner any bike simply due to the greater overall surface area to weight ratio.

Jim

I would just like to add my limited input on this (as comapred to cars) as I have lots of guys here (at work) who race motorcycles, and we have had dicussions like this regularly.

I have seen PLENTY of track video and talked overall lap times where cars are pulling faster lap times than bikes on the same circuit with no traffic.

For good examples of this, look at any Nurburgring video. You can watch a decently prepared car with a good driver get LEFT in a straight line by a bike, but once it comes to a slower section with lots of curves, the (in this case) v6 STi CAUGHT and LEFT the bikes as it has to MUCH less corner speed. I think a good model would be to take motorGP times and compare them to Speed World Challenge GT cars at a 'local track' (ViR, Road Atlanta), and see the difference. I think that discussion is interesting in itself, and I KNOW Top Gear has done this proving a street Carerra 4s was faster than a Ducatti @ Brookshire (?). I will check on that....

Wow. Does that make a bike more point and shoot than an AWD car?


[/OT]
Novices -- Simple words. Simple instructions == best.

- dow

I assume the school on Saturday is a NOVICE school? Given that assumption is correct, you'll spend your day on the "general" line for the most part, not the finer sublties of turning in 2 feet sooner. It'd be great to get that kind of novice, and occationally it happens I'm sure, but the bulk of novices need to get the basics down, and I'm pretty willing to bet that won't include tweaking the line to get the last possible 10th off the time.

Have fun.

_________________
Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe

Yea, you're absolutely right. This is all splitting hairs with repect to novices.

My comments (veering the poor thread even further off-topic) were directed towards Martyn's response to Chuck's post about the evo instructors. In that context, the line should matter however subtle the differences may be.

Well, I can't actually say that for sure having never taking an evo school and not knowing which phases teaches which techniques. I was just trying to interpret between the lines (hey, a pun! ) because, and this is an assumption to be sure, lots of non-novices are reading this thread.

I do remember doing a course walk with Tim Aro at nationals last year discussing the entry into a few elements on the north course. We came to the conclusion that we couldn't use the exact same line and approach due to the differences in the cars we were driving. He was in a mid-engined rwd csp car on r-compound tires while I was in a front-engined fwd sts2 car on street tires.

What were we talking about again? Oh yea, motorcycles!

Anyway, I'll finish with the first piece of advice I ever got when I started racing go-karts (at age 23, not 4!): "Go fast and turn left!!!"

Granted, I was racing only on ovals but it should apply roughly half the time this weekend...

Jim