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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:56 pm 
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Brian Herring wrote:
Ohhh... now juxtapose Avg Cones Per Run vs Avg Finishing position and see if all this stat mongering has any correlation. :)

- dow
There can be no meaningful correlation as finishing position is determined by best run while the cone count presented here is an average of all runs. Such an analysis would perhaps be meaningful for rallycross where all runs count, but for an autocross that analysis could be easily rendered meaningless by the driver who is often 'dirty' except for one 'clean' and fast run which would yield a good finishing position.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:05 pm 
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but for an autocross that analysis could be easily rendered meaningless by the driver who is often 'dirty' except for one 'clean' and fast run which would yield a good finishing position.[/quote]

i believe that is spelled "Graham"


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:09 pm 
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Rich Anderson wrote:
Brian Herring wrote:
Ohhh... now juxtapose Avg Cones Per Run vs Avg Finishing position and see if all this stat mongering has any correlation. :)

- dow
There can be no meaningful correlation as finishing position is determined by best run while the cone count presented here is an average of all runs. Such an analysis would perhaps be meaningful for rallycross where all runs count, but for an autocross that analysis could be easily rendered meaningless by the driver who is often 'dirty' except for one 'clean' and fast run which would yield a good finishing position.


I think that Brian is hinting at the concept that you don't see big things without big chances.

I can drive around the cones all day, but that doesn't mean I'm fast.

Scott


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:11 pm 
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scottjohnson wrote:
I think that Brian is hinting at the concept that you don't see big things without big chances.

I can drive around the cones all day, but that doesn't mean I'm fast.

Scott
So you contend that there should be an inverse relationship wherein high cone counts would correspond to lower times? Interesting. That would be cool to see.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:13 pm 
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steve remchak wrote:
but for an autocross that analysis could be easily rendered meaningless by the driver who is often 'dirty' except for one 'clean' and fast run which would yield a good finishing position.


i believe that is spelled "Graham"[/quote]

Or Hackaroo Herring (#2 in cones!!!)

AutoX is all about taking chances. You see a lot of 'fast' people hitting a lot of cones. That isn't necessarily the case with those who dont (Overall PAX and Overall RAW as comparisons). There are always exceptions to both cases.

Scott:: Bingo.

- dow


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:31 pm 
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Stephen Westerfield wrote:
That said...ask and you shall receive.

Avg. Cones Per Run %
1 Dan Ecclestone 0.10
2 Kathy Gleason 0.11
2 Malia Fredrickson 0.11
3 Paul McRoy 0.13
4 Dan Bishop 0.15
5 Michele McRoy 0.16
5 Jasper Pollard 0.16
6 Jonathan Rodriguez 0.18
7 Ricky White 0.19
7 Ryan Senior 0.19


Y'all aren't trying hard enough.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:58 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:06 pm 
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Rich Anderson wrote:
So you contend that there should be an inverse relationship wherein high cone counts would correspond to lower times? Interesting. That would be cool to see.


You could contend that, but I would think that assertion is silly.


Scott


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:14 pm 
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I'll bet that Son of a Mitch is clean on every run.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:01 pm 
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Quote:
but for an autocross that analysis could be easily rendered meaningless by the driver who is often 'dirty' except for one 'clean' and fast run which would yield a good finishing position.


i believe that is spelled "Graham"[/quote]

Actually, I think that's spelled "Eric Peterson" :lol:

(FTPAX with > 20 cones throughout the event)

But I would say that he & Graham are pretty even on cone-mowing ability, having ridden with both of them. :D


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:39 pm 
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I figured it was just a matter of time before my name was mentioned :-)

I'll share a few comments on hitting cones, since it's a trouble area for many of us, in the hope that someone may find it helpful. There is never one (1) right way to address any topic, so my thoughts are only one way to look at it. In my case, when you have a lack of talent compared to the big time drivers, I've accepted that I can't be clean on most of my runs *and* still have a chance to beat the top level drivers. I rather inconsistantly be at the top, than never be at the top! Therefore, I try to be aggressive and get some decent runs in that give me a chance and winning or placing in a big event. Sometimes that means risking blowing an event or multiple events.

There really is no such thing as putting a run in the "bank" for someone with my talent level. I can drive at 95-97% all day long, put decent times down, and rarely hit a cone. But, 97% won't get someone like me (slightly above average skills) a Pro Solo or National Tour win...or a trophy at Nationals. Hence, I try my best to be fast at Run #1. In fact, in all seriousness, I think most people in Tarheel are more talented than I am...the only reason I may be faster than some people is b/c I've spent most of the past 11 years of my life standing around in a parking lot with cones getting tons of seat time....not the best investment of one's money or time :-)

When I go out and put in a safe effort on my first run, then several things just happened or didn't happen: 1) I did learn how to navigate the run at less than full speed, 2) Even if I got a decent "clean" time, it's likely not going to hold up for a top spot or trophy anyway, and 3) I now have even more pressure to be fast b/c I only have two more runs left and I still don't know what it feels like to be at 10/10ths through most of the features.

There are many drivers who can be clean, and rocket fast almost all the time (e.g., G.H. Sharp, Jonathan Roberts, Tim Aro, and scores of others - most of us do not fall in that category. If you are an average driver or one who cones too much then you have to address it in some way. I found that when I tried to run clean all the time I was slower and things did not "flow" for me - I became too deliberate. I'm fortunate to have a very good friend who is one of the best Sport Psychologists in the country, she's worked with many of the Olympic teams and with sports that have similiar demands as autox. We talked about this very subject about five years ago. Her answer was "don't worry about it and don't think about it..the more you think about it the worse it will get." That's easy to say and harder to block out, especially when your buddies & people around you keep telling you to stop hitting cones, when that's actually the worse thing they can tell you. Nonetheless, you have to have the discipline to disregard those comments and push them out of your mind and focus on what you need to do to be fast.

I found this advice to be a big help to me. Actually, over the past few years when I run divisional and national stuff I've rarely coned away my fastest run...that was not always the case though. During locals and test and tunes, I usually pick different things to focus on, being cone-free during these events is generally not a priority for me, b/c I know I can clean it up when necessary. If I was running for a club championship, then I'd likely change my approach, but that's currently not the case. Even when I do screw up and cone away good runs or events, I know that it's just part of the big picture given my talent level and propensity to make certain mistakes, but on the other side of the coin, sometimes things work out really well.

Now, if you cone so much that you can rarely get a clean run in, then it's worth going to school focusing on the basics and make some technical improvements.

This philosophical approach probably won't work for most folks, but it's helped me to increase the probability of driving clean when I need to and to better accept it when I am excessively dirty. As a result it's helped me to make the most out of average talent and beat, at one time or another, many drivers that I never would have imagined that I could have even run close to and get some respectable finishes that I didn't think possible.

One of the fun thing about autocrossing is that you can inventory/analyze your strengths and weaknesses, then decide how you want to spend your time developing your strengths & mitigating your weaknesses to get the most bang for your effort & talent. Early on I decided that there were certain lower priority things that I wouldn't waste mental energy on so I could focus on more important stuff. Most of us are not Tony Stewart or Mark Daddio and thus can't fix all of our problems, so I just learn to live with some of mine. I think that approach has helped me more than anything else to be reasonably competitive over the years in a tough class in several different cars. Sorry for the essay, though I hope that there may be something of value in my babble.

Eric


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:56 pm 
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When I don't hit any cones at an autox, I'm pretty disappointed in myself - because like Eric and others, I know that hitting cones is an indication that I'm pushing hard enough. Ever since I started rallycrossing, I've gotten a habit of "rallycrossing" at autoxes - I'll be sideways a lot, and I'll also turn it down a notch when I'm around a lot of cones so that I don't hit any. Which is a good thing for rallycross, but not so good for autox. Once in a while, I'll be able to get back into the autox mindset for an event and hit a bunch of them, though. :D

The key is whether you're nailing them with the front bumper or just barely nipping them with the rear tire. I prefer the latter - but the former can be fun, too. :lol:

Eric - I just had to mention your name because at one of the events at Laurinburg this year I got a sequence of photos with you coming down the runway, and as you get closer to me, you can see in the background that workers from every station are out on the course resetting cones. :lol: :thumbsup:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:50 pm 
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FYI,

One of the things that driving Miles' Corvette this year has taught me is that being relatively cone free is a LOT easier on typical National Style courses such as this year's NCAC and the hot summer Greenville course than it is on "thread the needle" courses. Not to say that crowding the cones isn't necessary on many National style courses, but it is, in my experience, much less "necessary". Combine that with the fact that if you have only three runs and start with cold tires and a course "learning curve" on the first run or two that third and final run better be clean . . . :)

One thing I really like about Pro Solos is that if the weather forecast is good you get a lot of runs to REALLY push the limits of car and driver. By the time you get to the final class runs you better be at the max if competition is tough. Great learning opportunity. Then if you get into the Challenge you better be both fast and clean.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:12 pm 
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Eric Peterson wrote:
I figured it was just a matter of time before my name was mentioned :-)

I'll share a few comments on hitting cones, since it's a trouble area for many of us, in the hope that someone may find it helpful. There is never one (1) right way to address any topic, so my thoughts are only one way to look at it. In my case, when you have a lack of talent compared to the big time drivers, I've accepted that I can't be clean on most of my runs *and* still have a chance to beat the top level drivers. I rather inconsistantly be at the top, than never be at the top! Therefore, I try to be aggressive and get some decent runs in that give me a chance and winning or placing in a big event. Sometimes that means risking blowing an event or multiple events.

There really is no such thing as putting a run in the "bank" for someone with my talent level. I can drive at 95-97% all day long, put decent times down, and rarely hit a cone. But, 97% won't get someone like me (slightly above average skills) a Pro Solo or National Tour win...or a trophy at Nationals. Hence, I try my best to be fast at Run #1. In fact, in all seriousness, I think most people in Tarheel are more talented than I am...the only reason I may be faster than some people is b/c I've spent most of the past 11 years of my life standing around in a parking lot with cones getting tons of seat time....not the best investment of one's money or time :-)

When I go out and put in a safe effort on my first run, then several things just happened or didn't happen: 1) I did learn how to navigate the run at less than full speed, 2) Even if I got a decent "clean" time, it's likely not going to hold up for a top spot or trophy anyway, and 3) I now have even more pressure to be fast b/c I only have two more runs left and I still don't know what it feels like to be at 10/10ths through most of the features.

There are many drivers who can be clean, and rocket fast almost all the time (e.g., G.H. Sharp, Jonathan Roberts, Tim Aro, and scores of others - most of us do not fall in that category. If you are an average driver or one who cones too much then you have to address it in some way. I found that when I tried to run clean all the time I was slower and things did not "flow" for me - I became too deliberate. I'm fortunate to have a very good friend who is one of the best Sport Psychologists in the country, she's worked with many of the Olympic teams and with sports that have similiar demands as autox. We talked about this very subject about five years ago. Her answer was "don't worry about it and don't think about it..the more you think about it the worse it will get." That's easy to say and harder to block out, especially when your buddies & people around you keep telling you to stop hitting cones, when that's actually the worse thing they can tell you. Nonetheless, you have to have the discipline to disregard those comments and push them out of your mind and focus on what you need to do to be fast.

I found this advice to be a big help to me. Actually, over the past few years when I run divisional and national stuff I've rarely coned away my fastest run...that was not always the case though. During locals and test and tunes, I usually pick different things to focus on, being cone-free during these events is generally not a priority for me, b/c I know I can clean it up when necessary. If I was running for a club championship, then I'd likely change my approach, but that's currently not the case. Even when I do screw up and cone away good runs or events, I know that it's just part of the big picture given my talent level and propensity to make certain mistakes, but on the other side of the coin, sometimes things work out really well.

Now, if you cone so much that you can rarely get a clean run in, then it's worth going to school focusing on the basics and make some technical improvements.

This philosophical approach probably won't work for most folks, but it's helped me to increase the probability of driving clean when I need to and to better accept it when I am excessively dirty. As a result it's helped me to make the most out of average talent and beat, at one time or another, many drivers that I never would have imagined that I could have even run close to and get some respectable finishes that I didn't think possible.

One of the fun thing about autocrossing is that you can inventory/analyze your strengths and weaknesses, then decide how you want to spend your time developing your strengths & mitigating your weaknesses to get the most bang for your effort & talent. Early on I decided that there were certain lower priority things that I wouldn't waste mental energy on so I could focus on more important stuff. Most of us are not Tony Stewart or Mark Daddio and thus can't fix all of our problems, so I just learn to live with some of mine. I think that approach has helped me more than anything else to be reasonably competitive over the years in a tough class in several different cars. Sorry for the essay, though I hope that there may be something of value in my babble.

Eric


Eric, that is an EXCELLENT post for the intermediate/advanced THSCC member. It drives home a point that I knew all of 05, Go 10/10ths from the first run. Too often, I would pick up MASSIVE amounts of time in the afternoon, I got to stop that in 06.

I know several friends that ALWAYS seem to have a dirty 1st or 2nd run, but its FAST. These friends always beat me too :(

I may print out your post and bring it with me to events, kinda like a pep talk of sorts. Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: 2005 Season Stats...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:54 pm 
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Stephen Westerfield wrote:
Most DNF's this Season
6 Mary E. Fisher 6


If you don't wanna up your cone count, you can follow my strategy. If it looks like you're gonna mow down a row, just abort that section & keep gittin' it. That way you don't lose momentum to practice the rest of the course for your next run.

That's my story & I'm stickin' to it. :D

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