⚠ Forum Archived — The THSCC forums were discontinued (last post: 2024-05-18). This read-only archive preserves club history. Visit thscc.com →  |  Search this archive with Google: site:forums.thscc.com your search terms

THSCC Forums

Tarheel Sports Car Club Forums
It is currently Tue Apr 07, 2026 10:10 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 122 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:31 pm
Posts: 686
i'm really looking forward to this. i know i'm still a n00b, but hopefully my instructor/s will have the patience to bear with me. no one said i couldnt come yet, so i'm assuming i can :twisted:

my goals are not only to look ahead, but to think ahead.. ie, see the line and form the plan and not just see the cones and not get lost.

i also really want to get a better grasp of the 9/10-11/10 levels. riding w/ Keven the event before last helped me the most of anything yet i think. and it was also my best event performancewise. the first thing i noticed w/ him is how much he used the gas and how hard he used the brakes. everything just a few notches more extreme than myself.

i also picked up some good techniques for rotating the car using the brakes that day which have proved helpful.

and i would also like to learn more about course walking strategy and memorization

will we have one instructor for the day or will we be with a variety of instuctors? if just one, how do assignments work?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:30 pm 
Offline
I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:08 pm
Posts: 1524
Location: Raleigh NC
jimpastorius wrote:
Aaron Buckley wrote:
I'm not questioning the concept, just questioning the ability to convey such a mouthful at a local intermediate school. Most of the students in our school will be lucky to get two pieces of information that they can apply to their autocross repertoire.
AB




If a person wants to switch their driving style, the school is not a good venue. Unless you have an expert in that style and car that can help you. And you will need many, many, many practice runs.



I am not advocating anyone change their driving style, just offering an alternative mental image of what they are (supposed to) be doing, just like an alternative way of course memorization. If it works for them fine, if not, that's fine too, different strokes for different folks. I talk to and observe my students, asking them what they need or want to work on, and then see if that's what will help them the most at that time. If I see something more fundamental they need work on, I'll suggest they consider it or at least discuss it along with what they've expressed an interest in, and the relationship of the two.
As an instructor, you must be willing and able to adjust to the student. If the student wants to work on left foot braking for instance, this is the perfect time to do it, and I would offer all the theory, insight and observations I can. I am still learning it myself so I am going thru some of the same learning curve, and feel I can empathise and pass on what I am doing to learn it myself. If they are doing it better than me or I don't feel I can add anything, I'll then recommend them to someone else. I also offer a lot of information when instructing, I don't expect all or even much of it to be grabbed immediately, but hopefully down the line a bell will ring and they'll say "that's what he was talking about, now I understand." as the pieces fall into place.
As stated by others, this is an intermediate/advanced school, and as such IMHO instruction needs to tailored to the student's needs and more advanced ways of thinking presented beyond "you late apex in the slalloms".
I do hope that some thought be given to matching students with instructors, allowing students to request instructors if they'd like to work with someone in particular. If someone doesn't want to work with me, please feel free to say so and I'll do my best to find someone else for you.

_________________
SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:47 pm 
Offline
Rookie phenom
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2003 11:00 am
Posts: 1792
Location: Raleigh, NC
Please don't take this the wrong way guys...if you have not mastered the fundamentals, new techniques or tricks will just make things worse. So as you try and master LFB and are still 1-2 feet off of the slalom cones, you will not be faster. You will actually slow down.

Just think, if you master slaloms, for every foot you are off that cone, it is a tenth of a second, that is 1/10th of second you pick up for every slalom cone. Think about Sanford and all those slaloms.

Take any Evo school and they just drill into you the fundamentals. They do not worry about car set up or what technique you use. That is why even the top drivers in the country go back to them.

A master craftsman doesn't need a lot of tools. They are very proficient with the basic ones.

Where would I try to learn LFB? Like it was mentioned before, practice on the street, then the February test and tune. And yes, in competition! Over the course of the next 4 weeks, there is a race every weekend.

Like I said before, if Kevin wants to try LFB, I am not the person to instruct him. I am a RFB and always will be. I too old and slow to learn somehting new when I have not mastered the fundamentals.

But I can tell Kevin when I know I have him beat even before we run ;)

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:05 pm
Posts: 2474
Location: 21st century digital boy...
Chuck Frank wrote:
I do hope that some thought be given to matching students with instructors, allowing students to request instructors if they'd like to work with someone in particular. If someone doesn't want to work with me, please feel free to say so and I'll do my best to find someone else for you.


Well put, I agree. I was thinking it might also may sense to get "schooled" by someone with a similar car, for example front wheel drive, torque compromised car or the polar opposite being a 4wd, turbo, hack-a-ru, depending on what the student drives.

-Matt


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:13 pm 
Offline
Just call me Bo

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:39 pm
Posts: 1431
Location: SYPHAJFD
Matt McGrain wrote:
I was thinking it might also may sense to get "schooled" by someone with a similar car, for example front wheel drive, torque compromised car or the polar opposite being a 4wd, turbo, hack-a-ru, depending on what the student drives.


I hereby volunteer to "school" anybody with <100whp, a busted transmission and a broken rear swaybar! :crazy:

Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:14 pm 
Offline
I err on the side of being stupid
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:15 pm
Posts: 4743
Location: Greenville, NC
Matt McGrain wrote:
Chuck Frank wrote:
I do hope that some thought be given to matching students with instructors, allowing students to request instructors if they'd like to work with someone in particular. If someone doesn't want to work with me, please feel free to say so and I'll do my best to find someone else for you.


Well put, I agree. I was thinking it might also may sense to get "schooled" by someone with a similar car, for example front wheel drive, torque compromised car or the polar opposite being a 4wd, turbo, hack-a-ru, depending on what the student drives.

-Matt


While I will try to match like drivers and students together (or make parings to keep the peace 8) ).

HOWEVER......looking ahead, turning early, being on top of cones, hitting your pre-determined "marks" and turning in behind cones are what you need to do with ANY drive layout. I have owned and competed with all three drive layouts, I have not really changed my driving style significantly. I think people make more of this than they should. Its still a car with 4 wheels vs a bunch of cones that you must navigate.

Of course im just a hack that gets beat like an old shoe by my co-driver, so take it for what its worth.

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:27 pm 
Offline
Stalker's boyfriend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:35 pm
Posts: 2858
Location: Looking for Chuck on the Intraweb
I'll be honest here and many may disagree with my thoughts on this, but our intermediate/advanced school is no Evolution School. I see it more as 'help me try to perfect the basics.'

I think labeling this thing as an advanced school is a bit of a stretch. Advanced schools are things like Evo schools, in which line, theory, and mental training are all focused on.

Some people love that level of instruction. I didn't get a lot out of my first Evo school, and don't plan on dumping the money on them... and I won't kid anyone that they'll get that level of detailed instruction out of this school, but I can guarantee that I can make about 75% of the drivers in the club faster with my 'basic' instruction. - AB

_________________
'14 Toyota Sequoia Platinum 4WD
Super Westerfield Bros - '93 Integra - LeChump Du Jour
STX 93 - Scion FR-S


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:50 pm 
Offline
JACKASS!!!
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:47 am
Posts: 3683
Ryan Holton wrote:
I have owned and competed with all three drive layouts, I have not really changed my driving style significantly. I think people make more of this than they should. Its still a car with 4 wheels vs a bunch of cones that you must navigate.

Of course im just a hack that gets beat like an old shoe by my co-driver, so take it for what its worth.


1WFWD, 2WFWD, AWD, 2WRWD, what else?

_________________
Has no responsibility whatsoever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:59 pm 
Offline
The Giver
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 8:45 am
Posts: 4566
Location: Bashing BMWs!
Like Ryna stated, the basic principles are the same, even in totally different cars. Looking (and thinking) ahead solves more than half of the problems IMO. I also agree with Jim P. that until you've mastered the basics (which I haven't), trying new stuff like LFB isn't the best idea.

Also I think it's worthy to note that different students learn in different ways and different paces. Some instructors have a better connection with some students, which sometimes has nothing to do with the types of cars they drive. I know several people who drive very well that don't instruct very well at all IMO. Knowing when your student "gets" what your saying is one key to being a good instructor. Another is realizing when/if your student has the "feel" of their car. Some things like oversteer can't be explained IMO by anything but feeing it when it happens. I'd think it's safe to say if your student doesn't understand this "feel" at the intermediate level then AX is probably not for them.

BTW, Ryna is a "reformed" hack (as am I) who has better "feel" of the car than I IMO. The reason I think I've beaten him lately is I'm still more smooth than he. When he figures that out I'm in trouble.

_________________
Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:08 pm 
Offline
SUPER Post Whore

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 914
Location: Durham, NC
Aaron Buckley wrote:
I'll be honest here and many may disagree with my thoughts on this, but our intermediate/advanced school is no Evolution School. I see it more as 'help me try to perfect the basics.'

I think labeling this thing as an advanced school is a bit of a stretch. Advanced schools are things like Evo schools, in which line, theory, and mental training are all focused on.

Some people love that level of instruction. I didn't get a lot out of my first Evo school, and don't plan on dumping the money on them... and I won't kid anyone that they'll get that level of detailed instruction out of this school, but I can guarantee that I can make about 75% of the drivers in the club faster with my 'basic' instruction. - AB


Well, I think this club has a lot to offer to the 'non-National' level driver with an intermediate school. Once you got the basics down, you are 'ready' for more instruction as you can keep up with the car and see what is going on. THSCC as a whole has LOTS of REALLY good and really FAST drivers. By platform, there are (off the top of my head):

- AWD: Kevin Allen, Keith Q
- RWD: Mike Whitney, Les Davis, Dick Rasmussen, Dustin Fredrickson, Patrice Bousquet
- FWD: Aaron B., "The Alien" (Shoulda been STS #1 Nationally), Both Fishers, Scott & Sally Johnson, The Franks (National Level Winners in DS)


While we might not have every class covered the SCCA makes, I think that for pure driving talent to learn from, THSCC is pretty darn deep.

- dow


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 8:42 pm
Posts: 187
Location: Raleigh/Durham
It seems to me, IMHO that having instructors with a variety of techniques is beneficial. As has been said, different students will work best with certain instructors. Personalities, interest levels, styles will all play a part in the successful mix.
I myself have found that in both THSCC schools and in Evolution schools that I've attended that I tended to absorb more from certain instructors that others.
Two of the best instructors for me at THSCC schools were Eric Peterson and Tim Aro. Both of them immediately tuned into me personally and worked with me on what I needed and how I needed it presented. Mary E has a talent for noticing small things that may escape others and makes you feel comfortable and capable.
Even though the Evo instructors are all teaching the same techniques on the same courses, the way each one approaches it can be quite different, and of course they have to adjust for the needs of the student as well. Each time that I've worked with Sam Strano I've learned a lot about myself and my mental exercises as much as techniques in driving. I've learned a heck of a lot about driving, in my style, from Jr. (Mike) Johnson. It varies for me and it will for anyone. For instance, Jr. always leaves me wanting to have more time to work and Sammy always leaves me in deep thought.

As far as LFB...
Some people would be or are very good at it, some people are not and have tried it and will not try it again. Different strokes...make the decision for yourself. But if you don't try it, you won't know. Some cars also react better or worse to LFB. Shawn Whipple discussed that very thing with me last year while I was contemplating LFBing.

Myself, I practiced it for about a year on the street before trying it at speed in an autox car, but even then not in competition. I spent an entire two day test 'n tune practicing it in a car. My first competition LFBing was at the Pro Finale this year. For my driving style, LFB worked well for me in the cars in which I was competing, a Mini Cooper and a Mini Cooper S. I tested a friend's Celica while LFBing twice. My first competition LFBing in my Celica was at Sanford ten days ago. I need more practice in my car I think. Timing and amount of pressure become even more critical when trying things with a different foot. :D Could I help someone who wants to try it...yes. Will we be successful...good question probably not, but that's the point of trying something new, an introduction. I rode with Carl Fisher and watched him LFB in the Neon last year to get some insight. If you're curious that's the way to go too.

As far as RWD, FWD, AWD...
I have had the opportunity to drive all three. I feel most comfortable competing in FWD, but have taught in all of them. Teaching the techniques of autocrossing remains basically the same. All of Andy's tips apply no matter what car you're in. Posture, seat position, looking ahead, scanning the course all remain the same. The best technique for that particular car may vary according to set up, surface and style, and certainly if you need set up help or insight into your particular class and car then someone intimately familiar with a similar car is ideal IMHO.

_________________
GO FOR IT! BELIEVE IN YOURSELF.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:06 pm 
Offline
Tadpole Lover

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 pm
Posts: 3479
I just instructed at a Subaru Challenge this past weekend - where potential instructor Brian Herring beat up on EVERBODY - including me, Tom Hoppe and Karen Kraus :D - and it really reinforced the fact that PRACTICE is the most important thing here. I was instructing noobs (a couple of them were at their first autox EVAR!!!11!), but even with advanced drivers you're rarely going to "get it" with only 4 runs. :lol: I can see your point, Mike, but you can do the same thing at any regular autox that you could do at a "school" with only 4 runs. The more runs you get in your car (or just cars in general) the better you're going to understand what you're supposed to do, and with enough runs you might even have one of those moments where everything falls into place and you go "oooooooohhhhh, so THAT's what it's supposed to feel like! :shock: " And if you want to focus on "getting it" in only 4 - or even 3 - runs, the rest of the day can be "fun runs" for you. :wink:

If it were up to me (and it's not, since I traded this event for Danville... :D & :( ), I'd set up a course in the P and a short course on the runway and make sure everybody got to run them eleventy million times with at least 2 different instructors in the car (but not necessarily at the same time :lol: ). The P course at the advanced school a couple of years ago was where the phrase "smooth = fast" really clicked for me, so I may be biased. :wink:

Whatever you guys end up with, I hope everybody has fun & learns a lot. :D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:15 pm 
Offline
I err on the side of being stupid
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:15 pm
Posts: 4743
Location: Greenville, NC
Kevin Allen wrote:
If it were up to me (and it's not, since I traded this event for Danville... :D & :( ), I'd set up a course in the P and a short course on the runway and make sure everybody got to run them eleventy million times with at least 2 different instructors in the car (but not necessarily at the same time :lol: ). The P course at the advanced school a couple of years ago was where the phrase "smooth = fast" really clicked for me, so I may be biased. :wink:


Did you look over my shoulder as I typed the pre event email?

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:41 pm 
Offline
Got Powah?
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm
Posts: 4724
Kevin Allen wrote:
I can see your point, Mike, but you can do the same thing at any regular autox that you could do at a "school" with only 4 runs. The more runs you get in your car (or just cars in general) the better you're going to understand what you're supposed to do, and with enough runs you might even have one of those moments where everything falls into place and you go "oooooooohhhhh, so THAT's what it's supposed to feel like!


Yeah, I was wrong about that for probably 80% of the people at the school. I was thinking more along the lines of wanting to teach the mental / planning / prep aspect of the sport -- which is really what I consider the advanced level. Most people at the school do need practice and to talk about driving techniques, I agree.

I hope there is some time to pontificate about planning. See, I've been spoiled by trying to help Rob H who has tons of natural talent. Most of our discussions lately have been about planning, but see with him it's easy because he spots opportunities in his driving techniques on his own and corrects them very, very quickly. But drivers like him are a rare breed :)

Aaron, I guess this gets to your point about this not being an Evo school. We're honestly trying to do about 3 different schools in one, and it's a little diluted.

But hey we're a bunch of volunteers and the price is right so I'm sure no one will be complaining :)

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 263
Location: Wake Forest
MikeWhitney wrote:
I hope there is some time to pontificate about planning.


Pontificate: To express opinions or judgments in a dogmatic way.

Now there's a $20 word :D

_________________
Rob Harvey
919-697-5485
1997 BMW M3
1992 Acura Integra (Simon)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 122 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group