Out of position cone. What to do?

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:37 am

Ok, while working this weekend, I ran into a situation that I didn't know exactly how to handle. I was the most senior (that is not saying much) worker at my station.

We had someone take out three of the five cones for in a slalom. While putting it back together we had trouble finding the right location for one of the three. Mostly the problem was that the rain had obliterated some the chalk/crayon mark. On top of that, the “good” marks used different colors (white, yellow and blue all in the same slalom), the bad one didn’t have an “X” in it and the next car was already on it's way. :cryin:

ANYHOW... We found what we thought might be the right spot but when we stepped back away onto the grass it was obviously in the wrong spot and the spacing for the slalom was all wrong. A car was approaching quickly and we couldn't fix it before it arrived. What should we do???

Luckily it was Shawn Whipple and he stopped and pointed out the cone to us (which we knew was wrong. :oops:

). So the following scenarios didn’t play out.

Ok, so is it my place as a worker to point out the cone to Shawn once he had stopped?!?! Maybe I have been watching to much professional racing on TV in which workers are not supposed to help drivers? Is pointing out the cone to a stopped and confused driver (helping him figure out what is wrong) OK? When Shawn pulled up and stopped, it was obvious to me that he realized something was screwed up but it took him a second or two to point out the bad cone. What if he point out the wrong cone?

What should we have done assuming the driver didn't stop and point out the cone? Should we have red-flagged the car as it approached? Let the driver run through the screwed up element and then call in to the bus to give the driver a re-run? Let the driver run through and only give the driver a re-run if he stopped and pointed out the cone like Shawn did? What is the correct answer? I have heard over the radio before of workers saying that a cone was out of position and that car X should get a re-run. The reply on the radio has sometimes been "If they didn't stop and point out the cone, they don't get a re-run". If this is true (driver has to stop to point out problem). How screwed up can an element be before a worker can red flag the car and/or give the driver a re-run?

PS: Sorry Shawn for not having have the cone back in the right place in time.

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:55 am

It is the driver's responsibilty to stop and point out a cone is missing or out of place. This applies to pointer cones too. I stopped twice on my final run for the second slalom on the taxiway. Funny thing is, between each of those runs five cars went and never stopped. I don't think they were looking ahead

You do take a risk though. If a cone is not out of place, you do not get a rerun.

When I go out for a worker assignment, I will check to make sure all the cones are in their box. If you have a problem where you can not find a box or it is poorly marked, radio back for some help; hold the start, bring chalk out...

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

I think ideally, when one worker is running out to set up the downed cones and another car is approaching, worker #2 should be at attention with a flag ready. If worker #1 can't get the course back together in time, he should tell worker #2 to wave the flag. It's safer and more fair.

The key is that the flag man had to be ready to do this at a moment's notice. Hence the reason we ask for the flags to be HELD when working.

As a course worker your responsibility is to ensure that the course is correct before the next car comes through. If it's not, stop the car!

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Mon Oct 27, 2003 12:50 pm

Mike, I agree with what you are saying about having a worker ready to red flag for safety reasons. We ended up having another car take out four cones in a different spot and was only able to get it put together with the help of a worker from another station. We did get it put together in time for the next car, but if I was to do it all over again, I would have asked the guy with the flag to red-flag the approaching car just for safety reasons. It ended up not being dangerous, but it was closer than I liked (especially with wet conditions) and we (including myself and guy with flag) were more focused on putting the course back together than we should have been.

But, in the situation with Shawn, while there is always time pressure on putting things back together, we thought it was in the right place, but we had some doubts. It wasn't until we were back off the course and safe that we realized for sure it was wrong and that the correct box for the cone was somewhere else. At that point Shawn's car was on the way.

So if safety is not an issue do you...

Red-flag, radio the bus to ask for a re-run or fix the course after the car goes by and driver does not get re-run. Which is correct? And if you don't red-flag, how screwed up does it need to be to go ahead and red-flag?

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:11 pm

If you red flag the driver or the driver stops, then they get a re-run. If the driver stops and no cone(s) out of place, then no re-run. If you red-flag and no cone(s) out of place, the driver gets a re-run and you are just slightly embarrassed :oops:

If you discover the cone is out of place after the driver has passed, you a lot more embarrassed :oops:

But there is nothing you can do except to fix the course.

Richard Casto · **Posted:** Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:19 pm

Ok, after re-reading Jim's and Mike's posts, I think the answer would be to red-flag the car since the workers KNOW the course is wrong. If the workers didn't know the course was wrong then it is up to the driver to point out the problem.

My only question now would be what if you knew the course had a problem but didn't red-flag the car for some reason (not enough time to wave flag, dropped flag, whatever) before they passed through the screwed up cone. Can you call it into the bus and request a red-flag and/or re-run? Or since they passed through without stopping they lost their chance at a re-run?

[edit... If the above doesn't make sense this is because I was typing up my questions while Jim replied and answered most of them.

]

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

The "driver needs to stop and point at cone for a rerun" concept works pretty well. The only situation in my mind that is a big problem is when the cone is out of place in the driver's favor. There are not many people who will stop and point it out if it helps them.

At one event earlier this year there was a huge "helper" cone like this in a really tight gate. I posted a great time and felt guilty, so I went and volunteered for a re-run. But "technically" I could have kept the time.

Best advice I have is to use the honor system for a situation like this.

I guess a good question (and richard probably asked it) which gets to the heart of this matter is: Can a worker call in a required re-run for a car if a cone was out of place in his/her favor? Could be a sticky situation.

This is all IMO by the way... But it's a topic that needs some eventual official definition, I agree.

Emmie Fisher · **Posted:** Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:57 pm

Ha; I did a Google search for "cone out of place" & our own site was the only place that showed up (under our rules), though we don't address the favorable out in our rules.

While it's admirable to ask for a rerun at a local event if you recognized that a cone was out in your favor during the run but didn't stop, & then have a guilty conscience after the fact, I suspect you might not be offered the option of a rerun in the same situation at a nat'l event. Anybody know for sure or have an SCCA rule book handy to see if it mentions a cone being out to the driver's favor? Just curious.

Speaking of the "honor code", I had 2 people ask me yesterday to add cones to their best times that they said they knew they had hit, but weren't showing. What an honorable bunch we are.

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:16 pm

If you know a cone is out of place and chose to ignore it (to your advantage), then it's quite possible that you (or someone else) will get a cone penalty for that cone.

Scott

Chuck Frank · **Posted:** Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:09 pm

I don't think there is a specific rule in the rule book for the described situation, but from what I have seen at national events, including being in the timing van at Topeka, the "official" position is that a cone accidently out of place or down either in favor of or against the competitor does not qualify for a rerun if the driver does not stop and point it out. The time stands as recorded. If the course worker cannot restore the course properly in a safe time before the next car, the radio/flagman should display the red flag and call for a "hold start" until the course is restored.
At national events there is a brief downtime during worker changes and the new workers are expected to check the location of all cones in their area of responsibility and the markings of the boxes, and again during any hold start situations. One thing that isn't emphasised enough is that when working course, you should be watching the CONES, not the car as it passes each cone. That way you will see a rocked or displaced cone that would otherwise be missed, especially if the car is passing between you and the cone.
There was an instance in GSL at Topeka where one lady with a high sense of fair play reported a cone hit that the worker missed on her only "clean" run for the day which moved her out of the trophies. Some of you who run at VMP may know her, Donna Marx, a true sportswoman!

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Out of position cone. What to do?

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