THSCC Forums

here's an example of how a longer novice season can be positive:

i started out this season like crap. i even DNFed a whole event away. but since ive steadily been getting better and better and closer and closer to the top. last event i had PJ beat paxed until his amazing last run and the event before i beat him raw! (sorry to single him out, but we're roommates and drive the same car, hes my target every event ) thats what i'm here for! thats why i've been to every event this year. not because i win (because i surely dont) but because a) i'm seeing myself improve and b) the competition among friends!

i think this length of season for novices can give someone the time they might need to improve and catch up against known opponents who act as benchmarks. it also provides the time needed to get a taste for the field and for how the competition will work at higher levels.

i also agree that if a novice is defined as one season's worth of experience then 8 points events should be it. i did do the sanford event last year so i'll drop out after #7 this season.

after that horrible event i was glad to have a whole season ahead of me to try to get better. if was going to get thrown to the wolves after that day i would have hated going back.

Just to be clear, I don't think anyone in this thread is advocating throwing anyone to the wolves, really. Heck, I'd say if one event last year was your only event, feel free to run an entire season of NOV this season if that's what you think is best for you.

The only debate is whether you should be getting a season long trophy for your "accomplishment" this season as a novice. As I stated, it doesn't *seem* like a good idea to some of us to encourage novices to stay in that class to compete all season long by rewarding them with a big trophy at the end. You should hop out whenever you feel you're ready to test yourself against stronger competition (which is *not* necessarily when you start winning NOV...that's one good indicator, but may not be the only one).

Anyway, what the hey...if you're having fun, keep having fun.


--Donnie

I am just going to reply to the topic on how it is relevant to me and my experiences and let all the other banter fall by the wayside.

EDIT: In relevance to the hondatech post, I think that post is AWESOME. You know why? He cared enough about what was going on to NOTICE what other were doing. That means that he is seeing what is going on and taking part in thought and wanting to do better/excel.

As far as race tires and trailering in a car -- if you have money/resources -- do what you want to. If I had a gazillion dollars and I had a REAL track car that I brought out to autoX and I am a real NOV -- so what? It happens in EVERY class to everyone.... someone could show up in X-class or OPEN in any class an dominate on a specality track made car setup by NASA. It happens, but if you are there everyday, you can win in the long run.

Also, this gives you a PERFECT change to talk with other people in your class and ASK them why they are doing it. TALK to your competitors. I am sure they will LISTEN to you and let people compete if you are taking away their fun. Socalization is part of it, afterall.....


For me though, I have done a grand total of 13 autoXes -- 1.5 years. Out of that time, I came into THSCC and I never bothered to run NOV as I had already placed top 3 in a Subaru Challenge event, so I got my 'freebie' trophy. For me, if there had been competition in NOV class and a year round program, I would have done it. In any class, it is all about COMPETITION, and if it is there, and gives other NOVs more ATTAINABLE times to shoot for -- I say it is good.

However, as Intermediates or Experienced drivers, I have always wondered why more people never moved up to PRO class? If you 'complain' about NOVs, could you not complain about those not driving PRO and hogging the Open Class trophys by not letting those who are competitive with each other have their time in the 'light'? Is it right or wrong to stay in Open, or is it a choice? Do you go there is you are Top 10 all the time? Do you go there if you have a large budget? Do you go there if you have a National Title?

Same with NOV. It is just a classification that you deem yourself whether or not you should be there. It is a choice. Right?

It all boils down to wanting a challenge, or going to a place where you feel comfortable. That is why we have TIR. That is why we have a bazillion different classes -- you can find what works for you, and enjoy it. Why are the AWD hack guys running STU? They are competitive with eachother and it is like a 'Spec' class where it is more about the driver. THAT for me has been awesome, and a place where I can learn from a driver who has a much different driving approach, but it very good in doing so.

Anyway, NOV year round --- why not. It is a class with rules. You come in half-way, you knew the rules. It gives you a small sandbox to try it all out and give you a chance. Better there to gauge your performance than 1 of 1 class in something else where you never really know where you stand and only have PAX as a driving force for your skill..

- brian

Sorry, got a little busy

First and foremost, we can make numbers support anything we want. I can manipulate numbers to show a 50% decrease And I am simpler than any one from down east way.

I do not think it is fair to bash someone who shows up at an event, expecting to complete with fellow novices and gets beat by someone who would not be a novice in any other club.

The old saying about glass houses...some people are jumping classes cause they are getting their butts handed to them in a sling.

Now we have novices going out and buying race tires. For god sake, this is suppose to be a novice class. Show up for your first event and look over at the other novice participant and see they are on race rubber...who would ever have thought.

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

i got lots of stuff to say, but i'll just stick with this

to all the novices reading this thread, keep doing what you are doing...the discussions here are good, and shouldn't be linked to any one person. the year long novice class was setup well in advance with lots of discussion around it.

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05 MCS

So a friend from work is wanting to try out this autocross thing and I told him he could co-drive my car. Should he change to street tires between mine and his runs, or should he run DSP Open with me? Should all of the other Novice drivers be at a disadvantage because they were expected to not be on race tires?

Where did this idea that Novices shouldn't be on race tires come from? Honestly, it completely blows my mind that someone new is "expected" to run on inferior equipment. Regardless of how good it may be for them.

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In need of car.

Should we keep some loaner race tires on hand for the novices? We can paint them orange.

Mike <-- contributing nothing to this discussion

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Well, I thought with all the silliness and discussion with DS 'gentleman's agreement', we would have put this to bed already.

If the rules allow you to use R-comps for the class you are in, USE THEM.

I don't see why if I am a NOV running in NOVDS, why I should have to run Street Tires. Then, I cannot compare myself to anyone in the class I want to run. The only people you can compare to is the TIR Open class drivers... and I thought we were 'trying' to get rid of that class (or at least it has a 'run another class if you can' general opinion).

I am all for RUN THE RULES OF THE CLASS. It doesnt matter if it is your first time or if you are a 30 yr vet. There are rules -- follow them. They are there from SCCA for a reason, and as long as they are our bible, I think it is silly to tell people to do otherwise.

- brian

I think the year long Novice Class will help better populate our open class's? Why? well if the some of the year long novices are running race rubber already they will have to go to open instead of the tire class. The old novice system just help keep the tire class full, since after three events a novice was booted out, and 99% of the time went to tire.

What I find also funny is some of the same people who are screaming and yelling about the year long novice class, are the same ones who screamed and yelled about the tire class, seems self defeating... and BTW just because someone does not agree with your does not make them wrong.


EDIT - Me and Brian think alike... hmmm thats scary!!!

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

That is scary....because both of you are missing my point. I am championing having the entry level classes as fair as possible.

Now, to be competitive in a novice class, the entry price has gotten way higher than the TIR class. Someone explain the reasoning behind that. Last year, if someone showed up on race rubber, they only impacted one event. And that was more of an oddity. I think it happened once last year for one event. Maybe opver the past 5 years, we had that happen 2-3 times?

I used to tell novices the only money they had to spend to be competitive was buying their own helmet. That is not the case any more.

If you were foolish enough to spend that money for one novice trophy, you were going to get your butt kicked in open class at the next event

The TIR class provided a place for newbies to play for a while. But what happened was the natural competitve spirit changed that class. People starte dto go out and buy tires and wheels specifically for that class. This happened at the same time as the SCCA introduced classes targeted at these people. We now had duplicate classes. I wanted to turn the TIR class back to its original purpose, somewhere people can play out of novice on a pretty level playing field.

Hell, change TIR class to allow only stock class modifications. And introduce a STS3....for non-classed STS2 cars to compete with the same rules as STS2.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Well, hell, if we're throwing out proposals...

1. Leave the year-long NOV as-is and rename it ROOKIE
2. Eliminate TIR
3. Create "VIRGIN" class, MAX 3 events to first enter, and you can't leave until you trophy

Mike <-- only 1/2 joking.

_________________
Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

[quote="jimpastorius
That is scary....because both of you are missing my point. I am championing having the entry level classes as fair as possible.
[/quote]

Nope I did not, I am just giving you another counter point, when you were ranting and raving against the tire class , your kept saying that the open class were not well subscribed, and we should be encouraging them to move to open. With the Current novice class this will happen, and in reality the Tire class is probably moving back to its original intent because the majority of tire used to be people with less than one year Experience.

The other thing to look at is this, people who ran tire in the past or are running novice now, did not have issues with how the class was being run, it has always seems to be people outside of the class. If the people who are running Novice now do not like hte current setup, then they need to speak up. I am never going to run novice again, I think the current setup is best for moving people to the open class's which is a good thing, I think older setup encourged people to move to the tire class and stay there.

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David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

To be devil's advocate here.... but, doesn't this parallel the ongoing drama in DS to a "T"?

Why are you going to impose restrictions on a class? What if they read the rules, did the homework, decided to get their car 100% prepared for X-Stock class before hand, and show to to be told "You can't race in NOV -- you have R-comps". That, to me, seems very stupid.

Furthermore, the #1 argument in DS class "gentlemans" agreement was:

- What if someone comes in mid-season, runs R-comps and destroys all?

That is THEIR RIGHT to run R-comps and be a NOV. Wasn't there some older 'caveat' that NOVs could not run the ST* class? I think that *may* have been the real reason of me not running NOV with THSCC -- too many 'hidden' rules.

Champion or not, I think it is a BAD idea to impose MORE rules to make things 'fair'. AutoXing isnt always 'fair'. For any group class, it is never going to be close to 'fair'. Some people are going to come in with overdog cars and destroy all -- period. I can almost guarentee that if a NOV came in with an STi, they would own NOV all year.

For any 'introduction' class, I am going to go with the KISS method, and if they want to be more 'competitive', THAT is what open class is for.

- brian

I like this idea

_________________
traded the ultimate driving machine for a hatchback.....

Note: Brian is now admitting it's the CAR not the driver in the STi = Fast equation.

_________________
Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)