THSCC Forums

Obviously this thread is getting too long, people can’t remember what was said and who said it with out an index or glossary.
As A Novice for the record.. I like the format, I like the aspect of getting trophies, I like the more relaxed experience.
I don’t understand why some people think running against other novices with less than one years experience equates to running against people with five, ten, fifteen or more years of experience. Being beaten by a novice with less than one years experience, gives you a gauge as to how you are performing against your contemporaries. That’s a benchmark . Racing against people with decades of experience and having no possibility of achieving any recognition until you can amass the years of experience of your competitors have appears overwhelming to someone just starting out. That is what I call Getting Sand Kicked In Your Face. Three events and out you go is a hard way to go, and many of you have gone that route. Again I like this format and I like the chance to perhaps get wood.
Bernie

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2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2

Hey, my method would simplify everything. If the T&S software has a field that is not currently used, all you do is put the N or L in it when required. End of day sort by that field and by PAX time, clap six times, go home.

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Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/

Jason, you're bold. I like that.

I think the basic concept behind Ryan's idea has merit. We need to think the details through of course.

Ryan, if we implemented your idea, I would pick an overall pax finish of about 50th as the threshold. For an event with 130 people or so, you've got to know something about what you're doing to finish in the top 50. If you think that's too soft, let's just pick a few folks that were in that roughly 40 to 50 range from event #4 this year:

38 Dick Rasmussen 1991 Chevrolet Corvette
41 Graham Jagger 2002 Chevy Corvette
42 Mike Whitney 1997 BMW M3
43 Malia Fredrickson 2000 Mazda Miata
44 Randy Melton 2000 Ford Mustang GT
46 Charles Frank 1999 Mazda Miata
48 Richard Casto 1998 Honda Civic LX Sedan

I picked those names above because I personally know all those drivers. These folks are not novices and anybody that knows these folks is well aware of their driving talent.

I haven't looked at every event, and certainly more analysis needs to be done, but I think any novice that beats the drivers on the above list doesn't need to be in novice. A top 20 pax finish is just too tight. Heck, most events, I can't even get in the top 20. Can I go run in novice class now?

What I wouldn't want to see is those uber competitive novices trying to sandbag. If he's that good, he's realized that he needs to win, but only by a small margin. Now we're running bracket races and he's worried about "breaking out".

It would be rather cruel in a way to let a novice driver run 6 events in Novice, get his trophies, and then on event 7, he breaks into the "non-novice" pax range, and then is booted to open. What happens to him or her then? It wouldn't be fair to have those first six events count for nothing just because he improved "too much."

It would be a pain to administer, but you could take his points and transfer them to the open class.

But.. that lends serious credibility to an idea that's been tossed out before.
We can have a nov class, but allow novices to accrue points in open class and also publish their novice class results.

Any driver that breaks the top 50 pax level is now automatically competing in open class for a season long trophy, and not eligible for a novice trophy. He would also be moved from novice class and registered in open class only from that point forward.

Personally, I think this is the best of both worlds. If you have real talent and break out of novice, we don't punish you for doing well by having you lose the points you've already accummulated.

If I've lost you, let me give you an example.

Uber novice John Smith shows up in his STI, in AS legal car, and runs in NOV. The class results will show John's results in AS as well as in NOV.
John is a great driver and wins the first four NOV events. On event number five, he wins NOV but his overall pax finish is now 38th.

Wow, John has really gotten good, especially for a novice. On event number five then, John's results are published in AS only and he is no longer in NOV class. His results are no longer published with the NOV class entries, and he is not eligible for a season long trophy in NOV. But, he is eligible to compete for an open class trophy in AS. And if he's finishing in the top 50 by event number five, he has a good chance at winning one.

The only exception I would make to the above is if the breakout below the magic pax value (of say 50th) does not occur until event 7 or 8.
At that point, you let John stay in there and have his novice glory if he wants it.

What I think we really want to prevent is the nov class from being dominated from the 2nd event onward by a driver that is truly good enough to be competitive in open. Generally, this is only going to affect a few NOV drivers each season, I think. For the "average" novice, they will run a season long class, and this will keep them from being beaten by a NOV that ranks higher than Mike Whitney or Randy Melton in the pax.

One more thing.. Let's say John's results in NOV were good enough for a third place finish in AS out of seven cars on that fith event. Publishing the results that way would also give John a clear picture of where he stands in open class, if he were competing there. He might even be motivated to move to open class voluntarily before he breaks that 50th pax. It would depend on how competitive John's open class is. He might be able to win his open class, but only have an overall pax of 53rd. It just depends on the level of competition in his class.

Well Jason, you asked.

Miles

Okay. let's use you as an example...right now you might have one trophy in Novice. In the old system, in your 3rd event you would have gotten a 1st place and Gewn a 2nd place. How would that have felt getting a 1st place trophy?

Right now you are in about 5th place for a season long trophy in Novice. Not bad...guess what you would be in the same position in AS season long standing.

Honestly, if you have a chance to saddle up to AS and run with them as a group, jump on it. There are some very good drivers in that class. All of them are more than willing to help.

Pressure and decades of experience in AS? Not really, yes Dick has been around for ages, but it is his first year in Miles' Vette. Miles has some expereince, not sure if he is a decade along though. Rick Butters is still wet behind the ears and TOm has as much expereince as you. A wonderful group to weigh your progress against.

You beat any one of those guys in your first year, that is worth morethan a piece of wood, that is great driving.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

agreed Jim, if Bernie would have done as you said, that might have meant a trophy for me at danville. i had a time .2 off from Emmett in DS. but who would i have bested in novice class? guys with less experience than me. i gotta tell you, that doesn't do much for me given that i have competed more or less against the same crowd all season.

and DS times are typically 6.0 seconds faster than me. i am barely competitive in NOV let alone DS. my arguement is for the tail end of the field in NOV as much if not more than for the front runners. if season long nov is dismissed the also rans fall to the wayside.

and besides, Bernie, Gwen & I are battling for braggin' rights these days. steve.

Jim,
I think we can agree to disagree on this topic....There have been some interesting ideas however. Rick Butters hit and important point that was sort of overlooked the novice school it was a tremendous aid to me in getting started... as were the instructors after the school. maybe more of them would bolster the ranks. I just have one question for you experienced guys/gals--- How does a thread like this end?????

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2004 C5(415whp,390ft/lbs),
1997C5,1997Trans Am, 1986 C4,
1990 Miata, 1976 MGB,1997 Protege, 1989 MR2

We have another autoX. Someone bitches about something else in a new thread. We post in it for another month.

Wash. Rinse. Repeat as necessary.

- brian

The normal process is that issues like this are brought up at the meetings, we dicuss and then vote.

Does everyone get their way, nope. But those that have a strong feeling about it, that have ideas will be there and will have an opportunity to speak and vote.

We did that with TIR. You think this novice crap is heated....anyone remember the logo change

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

That's funny Brian!

Thanks again for letting me take your STi for a spin. We should start a complaint thread boycoting STi drivers because those cars kick soooo much ass.

Anyhow, NCAC can't come soon enough!!!

HOT DAMN!!!! I HAVE A REPLACEMENT!!!!!

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Todd Breakey
STS 42 - 1992 Sunburst Miata
Dammit!
"You souldn't play leap frog with a porcupine. You might get hurt." - Eliza