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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:29 am 
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Brian Herring wrote:
Without the kindness of 1 or 2 people, my first autoX with THSCC would have been a disaster.
- brian


Brian Herring wrote:
The FEELING I get from autoX with THSCC and its members to new people is very.... well, xenophobic. If it wasn't for the fact that we had a VERY positive experience with the Subaru Challenge Series before coming to THSCC, I am very sure in saying we would not be with THSCC.


So did the one or two people do enough to keep you coming back, or not? Or was it all about the event and not about the people? This is an important point, IMO, as it is an indicator of how the current efforts are working.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:33 am 
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i did not have that experience. mine was more rush here, work there, remember this, don't forget that etc. sea of cones, directions to events and hotels and so on. i asked and i got answers.

if anything Brian, what i experienced reminded me of something i learned in some management seminar. basically that when instructing, be aware not to use industry or insider terminology as if your students already know the definitions. dumb it down some maybe at first.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:35 am 
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steve remchak wrote:
i did not have that experience. mine was more rush here, work there, remember this, don't forget that etc. sea of cones, directions to events and hotels and so on. i asked and i got answers.

if anything Brian, what i experienced reminded me of something i learned in some management seminar. basically that when instructing, be aware not to use industry or insider terminology as if your students already know the definitions. dumb it down some maybe at first.


Yea, I get that with my wife when we autoX and I try to 'help her out.'

The chick school and a different approach by other people in the club fit her learning style much better.

I have the tendancy to use 'insider terminology' a lot as if it gives a more precise meaning, I use it.

Good post Steve.

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So did the one or two people do enough to keep you coming back, or not? Or was it all about the event and not about the people? This is an important point, IMO, as it is an indicator of how the current efforts are working.


Knowing that I was going to autoX no matter what, and being hardheaded is what kept me coming back. Find people in my class that were *very* friendly and the fact I had someone else I could talk to while I was there and share the experience with that felt similar about the events kept me sane.

From there, I could 'branch' out and meet other people and start enjoying the THSCC community. However, *I* needed to have that 'comfort zone' so I could have 'fun' at the events.

And, that is about all I want to say about that.

- brian


- brian


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:06 pm 
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To aid in the on going effort to run this into twenty pages, I'd like to put my two cents in this discussion. I believe that Gwen and I are two of the seven novices that have attended all events todate. I can only speak for myself but to be sure having fun is the formost item on our agenda. Being competitive is right up there with having fun. As a matter of fact I'm sure that if there was no hope of improving to the point of being competitive, I would probably not continue. (It kind of pisses me off that I can do better in the Mini than the C5). Steve is on the right track, try the Z06 after you master the BMW. Having Rob and PJ dominate the novice class at first glance may appear to be a bad thing, but it really isn't if your in this thing for the long haul. They are the drivers that everyone in novice should be gunning for!!! If I should by some miracle catch them, just for one race, then there would certainly be a sense of accomplishment that would make my chest seven sizes larger. what will actually happen is I will improve faster setting my sights high, even if you don't achieve the goal your end result is always better if you aim high.
Remember that novices comming in in the second half of the year will not have to contend with Rob or PJ after Oct, so the second half of their novice year will bring someone else to shoot for!!!
As far as the wood goes---- everyone has some degree of ego. Yes I was tickled to death to get a fourth place in Sanford. I've also found that the harder you work for some thing the sweeter the reward when you achieve it. I would not like to achieve a first place because the competition was weeded out until I won....Thats accomplishing nothing!!!! As far as the R compound tires go.... In for a penny in for a pound, if its legal, do it! I would say that if anyone bought tires for the novice class events its a pretty good indicator that they will be around for a good long time. It is a sign of commitment.
In closing I'd also like to say the THSCC has some really good drivers, a lot of really good people who bust butt putting on these events each month, a lot of helpful experienced drivers who are anxious to help novices and others, and a fine group of members who have never been xenophobic towards me or Gwen. Say hello, ask a question, ask for help, ask for a ride with some one more exerienced and you will be pleasantly surprized. To Donna and all the instructors I agree with Rob, I learn more by riding with an instructor than by having them ride with me, at least for now, I'm sure that will change as I improve.
Bernie B

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:34 am 
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I am not discounting the novice input. But all we have done is shuffle people from TIR class into NOV. Last year you all would be competing for the TIR class championship.

I still stand by my theory we have made it worse for newcomers. Of the magnificent 7, how many of those 7 started after the school?

What happens next March when a driver shows up in Novice with 6-7 events and a school under their belt...maybe even toss in an evolution school?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:01 am 
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well Jim, i will be right there to protest the advantage he/she has. i believe it is very possible for someone to compete indefinitely in novice if they stay below the radar and only do 3 or 4 events a season.

as season points are counted for six events the same should count for nov status from season to season. six events with THSCC and you have fulfilled your nov quotient. how this could be tracked i don't know.

i think what we will see next season is people with two or three events in 2005 running some events in 2006 as novices.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:10 am 
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To add a little data in defense of Jim's point....

At the first Laurinburg event we had 22 new "first event" novices. To date they have run 72 total events, meaning 52 beyond their debut.

At Greenville we had 9 new novices. To date they have run 14 events, meaning 5 beyond their debut event.

At Sanford we had 9 new novices. To date they have run 11 total events, meaning only 2 events beyond their debut.

At the second Laurinburg event we had 8 new novices. To date they have run 9 total events, meaning only one showed up at Danville.

At Danville we had 11 new novices (that's Chick School). Who knows what to expect, but I hope we'lll see some of these back regularly.

The bottom line of this is that we have had great retention from our opening event/school, but poor retention from the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th event "new" novices. I'm not sure if this is an indictment of the full season novice class or a hint that we need to run more novice schools.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:23 am 
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Jim I don't know what the criteria is for (a year). If its pointed events then the novice starting next year with six events would get two pointed events as a novice then move to what ever class his car is in.
As a novice I like this format---- and I'm not winning in this class.
You don't like it because you have experience the old way, one win or three events and you go to the classes. You like your way cause your familiar with it. I never experienced it so I like the new way. Maybe all this means is that neither way encourages or discourages novices, maybe its just a case of do you like to race or not. Those that stay would have stayed regardless of the novice format. Again either you like to race or you don't, thats what keeps people comming and joining. If you wash out because of format you're not too comitted.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:40 am 
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Quote:
Those that stay would have stayed regardless of the novice format. Again either you like to race or you don't, thats what keeps people comming and joining. If you wash out because of format you're not too comitted.


Amen! :D


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:14 am 
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How was the weather at the first Laurinburg event? How many runs did we get?

What about the 2nd event in Sanford, same for greenville, etc.

How many of the novices at the first event of the year returned from 2004?

Rick only posted numbers for 2005, what are the historical retention numbers from '04, '03, '02, etc.

What are the retention numbers for novices that started with a novice school vs not. There are a lot more to the numbers than Rick posted (no knock on Rick here, because I know the analysis is on-going!)


Blah, blah, blah.

Yall keep talking in circles here, but for those that want to trivialize the novices, their driving and their contributions to the club, please stop posting.

Believe it or not, that is what many of the posts in this thread do.

We do get feedback from novices, and I'm just letting yall in on how some of them feel.

What we've determined this season (in no particular order of importance):

1) Event chairs need to have a thick skin.
2) Novice drivers need to have a thick skin.

I can live with item "1", but it's just plain wrong that some of you feel the need to create an environment where "2" is the case.

Scott


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:38 am 
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scottjohnson wrote:
I can live with item "1", but it's just plain wrong that some of you feel the need to create an environment where "2" is the case.

Scott


Please..... :roll:

These people are not children. If they are free to post their opinions, they should expect to hear the other side. If you are going to give it, you had better expect to get it :)

One thing about autocross...everyone is out for themselves. Their input on the novice class is no different from the classing arguements. Everyone wants their own sandbox to play in.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:42 am 
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jimpastorius wrote:
Please..... :roll:

These people are not children. If they are free to post their opinions, they should expect to hear the other side. If you are going to give it, you had better expect to get it :)

One thing about autocross...everyone is out for themselves. Their input on the novice class is no different from the classing arguements. Everyone wants their own sandbox to play in.


I don't think that the last statement is true. A Novice showing up for the first, second, or even third time is probably just working on finding and understanding the sandbox, not on changing. That is why Novice discussion is important - the class cannot be defined by the participants very easily.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:46 am 
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Rich Anderson wrote:
A Novice showing up for the first, second, or even third time is probably just working on finding and understanding the sandbox, not on changing.


I agree 100% with your statement. A true novice is just trying to find the stupid sandbox. We are not dealing with those people right now. :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:47 am 
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solid point Jim. it is the sandbox when it is boiled down. but when a new kid steps into the sandbox are we kicking sand in his face or are we moving over some to make room?

Scott i personally don't feel maligned because of my opinion. i think there is a great deal of "we have always done it that way why change" going on.

and in hindsight, some of my voiced opinions have been quite moronic. some even within these forums. if ya can't take don't dish it.

however i still stand by the opinion of full season novice. moronic or not.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:56 am 
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Let's see if I can help us reach page 16.

I've always had the sense that our novice retention rate is pretty low. I've thought that for years and years. I haven't taken the time to plow through the numbers, and probably won't, so that is just my sense of things. I remember so many events where we had 20 to 30 novices that it almost seems "typical" to have those numbers. And so many of them were first timers at each event.

I'm guessing, but we must easily have run anywhere from 80 to 150 novices through the club in a single typical season lately. Yet, it seems to me that we are fortunate if we end up with two to five people that actually stick with the sport long term and become core members. And maybe only one or two of those will go on to become officers, event chairs and major supporters. Sometimes, we luck out and get three or four long termers in a single year.. but our rention rate is probably only a few percent. That may just be "normal" for this type of situation.

We have to recognize that may be the case, no matter what program or format we use. Some people try this and just don't like it, for a variety of reasons. Cost, concerns over "beating up their car", "too difficult and confusing", etc., are common reasons people don't stick around. We can't fix those too much. We can help those stay that might quit because they thought we were unfriendly, or they didn't get any help.

Regardless of novice format though, I think efforts like those of our current novice coordinators will make more of a difference than the format. The mentor program is a great idea. I'm sorry to hear that the club as a whole hasn't supported that with the numbers I would have thought we'd get in terms of mentors. That will change in time hopefully.

Every person I know that is currently involved in the club can cite at least one or two or more people that took an interest in them as a novice and helped them out. Were it not for those people, most novices would not have stayed. That, in my opinion, is THE key.

As a novice, I was so overwhelmed by the whole experience, that I just wanted to figure out what to do, where to go, and not get lost on course. Times, results, etc. didn't even matter to me until I'd been at this awhile. And even then, it was as important to me as how far I was from the bottom as I was from the top. I didn't expect to win at this sport from the beginning. I just wanted to do better each time and learn something. If I beat anybody when I was new at this, I was happy! Some experienced guy taught me that in the beginning, all I needed to worry about was improving and learning each time, and not worry about finish position for a long time.

One problem with the trophy and out, or three and out rule, is that if you trophy early, you are forced to go to a class before you even understand classing. You may also be forced into an open class where you have ZERO competitors. I've been there.. and that is a lonely feeling. At least when we created TIR, it became a default place to go if you were new and had no competition in open class. If you want novices and new drivers to feel welcome, they need a class to run in with other cars and drivers in the same class. We still have some classes with no competition or consistent participants. At least a year long Novice class gives people a place to call "home" while they figure out classes, meet people, learn the rules, and so forth.

Concerns about first time novices feeling hopeless about results after their first event if they come into the program in July is understandable. But honestly, I think that view is the way an _experienced_ autocrosser looks at things. I don't think that's the way most novices actually see it. I just don't think the first time autocrosser is obsessed with finish times or classing. He hardly knows what an autocross is, and only a truly arrogant first timer would expect to finish high or win at a new sport on his first try.

The first autocross or two can be a nearly overwhelming experience for many people. It was for me. You guys can argue format til you're blue in the face. I think what matters far more is people in the club with a helpful attitude toward any of the novices that need it.

In contrast to the last statement, when I started this post, I didn't feel strongly one way or the other about the format question. But writing it helped me remember how lost I felt when I was forced to run in a class with no consistent competition. That was not a good feeling when I was new, and it isn't a fun thing even for experienced drivers. And I've never forgotten how much I valued the help of the experienced drivers.

So, now, after this college essay I've inadvertently written, I like the year long novice class. I see problems with it when I examine it with the eyes of an experienced autocrosser. But I see great advantages when I remember what I struggled with as a novice. And isn't that who the class should really please- those that are intended to run in it?

Summary:
I'd say that unless we get significant feedback from the novices that the year long novice class is not working for them, we need to leave it alone.

Regardless of format though, our novice retention efforts can best be improved by having all the regulars pitch in and help the newbies.

Miles


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