THSCC Forums

Take a look at the separation between top and bottom novices from this year's mid point and an event mid-point last year. To save research time...5 seconds last year to now over 12 seconds.

Sorry, it is the system and not the drivers that created the disparity. No offense to the novice drivers. We all have been there.

Now tell me who gets punished? You placate a few and punishing a lot more. All the novices who came out after event 3 are the ones that get punished. They have little or not chance to be recognized, rewarded or helped.

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

If the novice is there to get recognized and/or rewarded, then they are there for the wrong reason.

Anyone can always get help, whether it's their 1st event or their 100th.

Perhaps I just totally misunderstood your point.

------------------------------

The other club up here just doesn't have a novice class. Everyone starts out in open class. That would solve all the inequalities people percieve in novice. It's a thought. If Novice becomes more trouble than it's worth, maybe the officers will consider it. That said, the mentoring program and novice coordinators could still exist, as well as novice walkthroughs and such.

_________________
Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe

Jim, what events should I be looking at? July of last year and July of this year?

Last year Emmett won Novice class by, you guessed it, 12 seconds.

This year, the July event was decided byt? Yup, 12 seconds (I'm not counting the Alfa that didn't finish the event).

I'll leave it to others to do a true statistical comparison.

Maybe it hasn't been made clear, but we made this change to see how it would work. You get no where in life without experimentation. We might go back to the old way next year, we might try another new way.

We're open to feedback, and particularly value the feedback of the people in the novice system or recently removed from it. It needs to be useful feedback as well. A note like "yall are a bunch of "insert insult here" isn't going to even be considered.

We have a good crew of novice coordinators, and they are actually in the process of soliciting feedback from the *novices.* That seems to be the most relevant group of people to talk to.

I know when I was a novice the "system" shafted me out of a season trophy that I would have been very proud to have earned. I came up about 1 point short, and that was one point that I would have earned had I not run in the novice class. I think part of the motivation for this change was to give continuity for a season.

The way it is now, anyone who starts in our club after the 4th event of the season is "lost" until the next season (not eligible for season points). In the old system, a novice (who didn't ever trophy) fell into the "lost" category if they started the 2nd event of the season, because they got no credit towards season points for novice class (the events counted, but it penalized them when they switched to open/tire class)

Scott

I guess the only reason I think more people should run X class is due to class domination that they currently have. That said, there aren't too many of those that aren't running it and dominating their class, and of those several are vocally against us having an X class at all, which is why they don't run it.

I wish we had enough participation in every class that we didn't need X class for some folks to *get* good competition. I'd rather everyone run open, too. (Well, the reason I don't isn't that there isn't competition there...there certainly is. I'm on the side that runs X to not screw up points. But some folks are in X simply because there aren't any regulars in their class who can give them that push.)

I'd propose this change for next year: No X class, but let people register as "points exempt" . That's how several other clubs solve this "problem". We can then still post the overall pax numbers, which are still useful, as Jim said, to some degree. I'd still even do an FTPax trophy for each event. A little more work for the points administrator, but it shouldn't be too bad.


--Donnie

July 2004 Emmitt's 62.822 to Danny's 67.001 Statistically, I can drop the lowest value because it has no meaning when compared to the other values

July 2005 PJ's 40.770 to Paul's 50.1

A little research shows Paul was a first timer out there. Are the results of the novice a fair comparison of Paul's abiltiy to PJ's. Does Paul walk away from our event thinking dang I suck. The other novice guy beat me by upteen seconds.

Will Paul ever come back out? By the way, anyone get a chance to meet Paul?

I know Danny was at Danville and Emmitt is still at it. How much does some one want to bet we never see Paul again

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

If no one talked to Paul or he doesn't come back, I don't think it's the fault of the system. As a volunteer in the mentor program I was at the novice meeting at Danville. They were asked to raise their hands if they were first time AXers. Those drivers were then offered mentors. If they didn't get a mentor or didn't want one it was their own fault, you can only hold someone's hand so far.

_________________
SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.

Funny play on the numbers there

Here are the true numbers from '04.

Event #1 12 second spread
Event #2 6 second spread
Event #3 13 second spread
Event #4 6 second spread
Event #5 12 second spread
Event #6 6 second spread
Event #7 16 second spread
Event #8 10 second spread


No, I didn't drop the lowest number (as long as they finished all runs), because remember we don't want any novices left behind!

_________________
In need of car.

- brian

Nice try....let's add in the 40 second pax compared to the 60 second pax....busted. I was trying to be nice and drop the lowest ones from both of the events to keep the numbers fair. And I initially ignored the fact there is almost 33% difference in winning times

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

So what does this all prove? The distance from first to worst is BIG. Nothing earth shattering here.

Even under the old system, a novice couldshow up on race tires and hand them their butt.

_________________
02 Focus SVT
STF 9

I think the biggest thing we should learn from this thread is that novices are too much trouble to have around. No more novices at our events!

Here's my honest opinion about all this...

I like the new system, because the novices get to play together with no pressure from the "big boys" in Open class kicking their asses. I like the new system because we get to see guys like PJ and Rob and others make progress throughout the year, and we also get to see who's not doing so well and may need more attention. I like the new system because the novices are socializing with each other & sharing their experiences and getting really competitive with each other - instead of getting pushed into Open class or (barf) TIR class with more experienced people.

If some guy shows up for the first time (or a few times) and never comes back because he gets his ass kicked by a novice who's been to the school, done several events & prepped his car to the rules, who gives a crap? I certainly don't. If he wanted to win, he would've driven better. If he can't stand losing, tough shit. There are a lot of people getting their asses kicked every month in just about any class you look at and not complaining a damn bit. Nobody wins every time (not even Hoppe ), and you have to put in the effort to get the reward. If you care enough to stick around, you'll either eventually get good enough to deserve some sort of award, or maybe you'll just make a bunch of new friends and have a lot of fun. If you don't get that, then you don't belong here.

Peace out, bitches!

what Kevin said. $$$$$$$

Jim, i like the idea of recognizing first timers as well as the ringers in novice. if anything someone running two or three events at the end of the season might see an oppurtunity to return next season and whip up on the noobs if the loophole were explained from the get go.

or there is my dunce cone idea.

x100

_________________
David Teague
2015 Lexus IS 250c
1994 Honda Del Sol HS 39
2009 Dodge Journey R/T
http://teaguefamily.us

OK, I was a NOV last year and I trophied out at the first event and had to go to an open class. Here's my input.

I'd vote for having the Noobs trophy out, or run 3 events and exit to the appropriate class. Same as last year. BUT, **if** our scoring/points system can handle it, run a separate section for them and compare them to the other noobs all season in addition to their open class scorings/rankings. This way you benefit from the appropriate class competition and have the means to see what the rest of the freshman class is doing. The latter enables you to see if you are tracking with the other noobs. The former allows you to see how you are doing with similarly classed vehicles.

I don't think we have to hold their hands, though. Competition is competition and you have to deal with it some way or other.

Lastly, I am by no means saying that this year's Novice program is failing. The decision was made to do what we're doing and I support it.

Now, back to my Belgian Kapittel Prior Ale...mmmm, 9% at that!

_________________
Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.