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Ok, real world example of the difficulty of a two driver car that happened this weekend…

Tina and I tried to get in early enough Saturday morning so we could both work Heat 1. At it turns out, there were plenty of open slots for Novice workers, but the non-Novice section was full. We could have split our work assignments, but since this stuff is not just “driving” but a chance to spend time together, we wanted to work and drive together, so we both signed up to work in Heat 3.

When we drove in Heat 2, I was in A and Tina in B. She rode with me and I rode with her. I ended up having three re-runs (one red flag, two out of place cones). After my runs, we went straight to B with no delay. But because of my re-runs, we were on the tail end of Grid B. Tina then had one re-run herself which caused it to take even longer and on top of this, Grid B was “mysteriously” short. So that meant all runs in B was over much faster and Heat 3 Grid A was ready to go much quicker.

As soon as she finished up, we drove straight to our pit, parked the car, got water from our cooler and started to hustle to the bus to work. It was at this point that we heard our names being called out on the PA for being late to work. Were we slacking? No we were not.

I didn’t do a two driver car last year, but did the few years before that as well as most of this year using the exact same process above and it has never been a problem. I think I have been hustling to get to work on time and in the past about half the time maybe just barely making it and the rest of the time showing up early. But what compounded the problem this time was that we had a long course (no complaints here), but lower turn out so there was no wiggle room for the worker coordinators (they needed workers and they needed them NOW) and the fact that our re-runs caused us to spend more time in grid and in the car during our heat than we ever had in the past. The one thing I felt I had done wrong was that I was not aggressive enough with respect to trying to get to the front of the line in Grid B so that we could finish up Tina’s runs as quick as humanly possible.

We were there early enough on Sunday so that we both had actually signed up to work Heat 1. But because Heat 3 and 4 historically is short of workers and there were concerns about not having enough people later in the day, I let the worker coordinator know that we could split up and I could work later in the day if needed and that is what we did. So on Sunday we sacrificed the social aspect a bit and Tina worked in Heat 1 and I worked in Heat 3. She drove by herself in Heat 2 so that I could get to work in Heat 3.

Also, mentioned above was the concept of two driver cars running all of their runs in Grid A. That was even mentioned in the drivers meeting on Sunday as to what we should do. We tried this on Sunday, but were told by the grid worker in the morning to do the normal A/B. That is why Tina ended up running by herself (which actually was a good confidence builder) in the morning. But by the time we ran in Heat 4 it was a non-issue as we had both already worked at that point so we did the regular A/B thing.

Overall, I would like to be able to continue to run and work at the same time as Tina if we can build a system that will allow this to happen without causing problems with working. But if it is not going to work (which apparently happens even if you try hard to avoid), then we will split up during the event.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

In prior years when we ran the A/B grid line, my understanding was that the goal was to get to your worker station before cars from the next heat started running. So, if I drove in heat 1, and worked in heat 2, if I'm ready to shag cones before the first car in heat 2 is launched, I was considered to be very much on time.

With large run groups, which can take anywhere from 1 hour to 2 hours depending on how many delays, how big the run group, launch interval, etc... I don't think it's quite reasonable to expect all the workers to report to the bus as soon as Lane A is finished running. The system was originally set up to allow time for the Lane A drivers to finish their runs, get to their car back to the pits, get their water, or whatever, and report to the bus in time to get to their worker stations "on time." The worker coordinators in earlier years would be at the bus about 15 minutes or so before the heat was over to check in workers..... and that was generally adequate. The problem is when people don't report to work until after the next heat is already started.

Now.. depending on where your worker station is, you might have to check in 20 minutes early to get there on time. But I don't think it's realistic or what we intended to have workers report to the bus as soon as lane A is finished. The last few drivers in Lane A will never meet that goal.

So, I guess I'm asking for clarification here..
- What is considered "on time" in terms of reporting for work this year?
Do you have to be at the bus immediately after Lane A is finished? Or just be there in time to get to your worker station before the next heat begins?
Maybe I've always been confused and wrong and just didnt' know it until today.

Just my .02 worth,

Miles
(and no, I have no intentions of trying to replace Stephen next year! You're doing a great and rather thankless job!)

One thing that I've noticed is that some novices & certain women don't want to "break in line" - so even if they NEED to get their runs finished so that they can go work, they just wait because it might hurt somebody's feelings if they ask to go ahead. (yes, I'm talking about you, Christine )

I think we should just allow the multiple-driver cars to go whenever they're ready & ASAP, as long as they wait the mandatory 5 minutes between runs. And that's exactly what I've told them to do when I've been working grid.

Also, if I'm working the course, there is no way in Hell that I'm showing up for work before the B line has at least gotten 3/4 done. I showed up early a couple of times at Laurinburg when I was a novice & learned my lesson real quick (or actually, slowly & painfully ).

Personally I think this is exactly the type of clarification or guidance that I think is need. Maybe I just needed Kevin to say "it's OK, jump line" (assuming Kevin is right.)

I will also plead guilty of just not trying to push to get to the top of the line. Maybe I will start my own personal 5 minute timer and when it is up, just drive up to the grid worker and say "This is a two driver car, It has been about 5 minutes since it's last run" and then expect he will slot me in next.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

this series of steps/rules should work for everyone.

1) two driver cars, both people work same heat and do all their runs in the same A/B group (no one driver A other driver B)

2) everyone follows the A group before you work and B group when you arent working next rule

3) you get to the worker coordinator in enough time that you can get to your station before the B group finishes. (since people working should all be running the B line in the next heat there should be no "I need to get my car gridded in A" complaints, especially if following #1)

These three things should make it so that:
- everyone gets their runs in
- is on time for their working station
- A/B run groups are even-
- workers are on course for relatively the same amount of time (1st heat workers wont get off with a significantly shorter session and 4th heat wont be significantly longer)
- two driver cars can run together, work together, eat together, walk to worker assignments together and even use the port-a-pottie together if they please

Maybe we need to address why we have totally unique run groups that we have. I thought Miles was right on. Worked correctly, a competitor should have plenty of time to eat,d rink and be merry before their worker assignment. A rule of thumb...workers are called to the bus when the last run of the group starts?

The competitor should NOT be dictating the flow of the grid. You start this and you will have chaos. It is the grid worker's responsibilty to keep order and flow. How many people like sitting in their car, all ready to go and then watch other drivers jumping in front of them? No other club allows this kind of gridding, for good reason it prevents a lot of fights.

Maybe we need to redefine the grid worker's responsibilty? It seems they have become an extension of t&s just like the starter.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Jim Pastorius wrote:



Jim's exactly right... because part of what happens is that novices and newbies see a car pull out for no apparent reason. Then they figure, "hey, if that guy can go ahead of me without the grid worker's ok, then I can do the same thing." And thus the chaos begins.

If we have the convention of always pulling cars from the back of the row, why not just set up a two driver car area at the end of each row? Even if I'm working in the next heat, if I'm one of the first few cars in Lane B to finish my runs, I can still probably make it on time. Two runs in each lane for each driver... That would spread it out like it should be and still give them enough time to get to work. And, the grid worker doesn't have yet another special situation to keep up with.

At some events, we have so many two driver cars that if you put them all in Lane A, without compensating in some way, it makes the imbalance between A and B even worse.

Amen brother!

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

the way they did it at the NCAC event last year would work as well. They grid up the two driver cars in the first half of the grid space and the one driver cars in the back.. then they run through the two driver section twice before giving the one driver cars their first run. or at least when the first couple two driver cars got back they would stop doing the one driver cars (noting where they left off) and started back at the beginning again. this only works well if people would actually grid in the same place they did before. but i think we have enough two driver cars that it would work without starting the one driver cars.. the first of the two driver cars would probably be getting back around the time the last of them was being sent to the start line. This doesnt have a "5 minute" between runs rule.. but i think that can be scratched as a rule if it makes the flow easier and organized..

FYI the primary reason we have this "problem" is that we have the unique (in my experience) practice of having drivers run in TWO heats ("Morning" and "Afternoon"). IF we had a more "conventional" schedule of 4 heats with a driver taking all "four" runs in just one heat the "worker" problem would "theoretically" go away since there would be a heat between running and working. As a side effect each driver would only have one "cold tire" run instead of the current two.

Run order (which group of classes runs first, etc.) could be rotated.

Obvious negative is defining the classes to run in each heat since even with preregistration is harder to evenly split the entry into four relatively equal size groups than it is to have only two groups of classes and then limit workers by available "sign up space" on the worker sheets.

Another negative is that adjusting the number of runs for the event is harder (i.e. you can't do it on the fly like we do now and be "fair" to all classes). Conversely, no "National" event (not counting Pro Solo which is a totally different animal) allows even 4 runs. The limit is 3 per day. Basically, if you cannot get a clean and fast run in 3 runs, you are "toast". None of this "hope for a clean run in one of my 4 or 5 runs" that we are used to here. Maybe folks would like to have only 3 or 4 official runs followed by fun runs.

A positive would be that folks might actually have some "free time" for things like lunch and potty without being "late" for either working or gridding.

Just some observations.

Dick

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Miles you do have a point. But that is if all of the 2 driver cars get to choose which group they want to work in. Yes, most of them probably would opt to work early so they can get home. So that heat 1 group A would be huge or heat 2 group B would be huge.

But there are only so many worker slots for each group. If they sign up early, they get to work early together, run together and go home early. Otherwise, they run together, work late and go home a little later. In theory, the size of the run groups will remain constant, because those are dictated by the worker sign up.

There is a very easy way to control this....any one care to guess?

_________________
Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

Split heats with 2 driver cars!

What do I win?

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

pre assign it

Quit autocross and spend all my money on strippers or motorcycles?

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Blast from the past!

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.