THSCC Forums

Still searching for the ultimate (cheap) autocross pad. Anyone with experience with 2 or more of these for autocross care to comment?

Here's my situation -

Been using Axxis Ultimates on several cars and have been very happy with them. Then I bought a Miata with HPS and I was very impressed with them as a street pad since they had great initial bite, high "mu", and great "release" feel. I bought a set for the street BMW to replace the Ultimates just wanting something that dusts less. The initial bite and release characteristics (and modulation) are FAR better than the Ultimates I had on there. And I *thought* the Ultimates were great.

I have Ultimates on the red BMW and I want the same improvements. So now I'm now contemplating the HPS but I have "heard" that HP+ is "better". Wondering in what ways ... or if anyone is using HPS and happy with them.

Keep in mind that this is for a car that doesn't have very good brake feel to start with, so comments like "wadded up paper towels on my Vette / STI / M3 / Miata are great" aren't too useful.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

i had the hp+ pads on they gti last season and they worked pretty well...they don't like the cold temps too much, but as soon as you get a little heat under them, they seem to grip pretty well...can't really speak for "fee" or "modulation" as the gti had abs and i just used my no-talent right foot to stomp on the pedal every time and let the computer do the work

oh, one more thing, they also squealed like mad...when i came to a halt at stop lights, small children cried and the elderly dove into bushes.

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05 MCS

Mike,

I have direct personal experience with both Hawk HPS and with HP+ on the Formula Ford.

I currently run HPS and really like them. Easy to modulate and very "linear" in regard to braking vs pedal effort. Pedal effort consistent with the amount of braking I need for the situation (remember my car does not have power brakes). Essentially no dust. No apparent temperature sensitivity. No noise (as if it matters for my car).

The HP+ pads were too aggressive which resulted in much greater tendency to lock the inside front tire. Plus they dusted like crazy. I don't recall a temperature sensitivity.

Note that it is very easy for me to monitor inside front tire lock up

Dick

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Mike,

I've used HP+ and AXXIS Ultimates on my E36's, but never the HPS. I bought the HP+ pads based on feedback from local folks who found them to work well on track and street. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case with an E36, probably due to the weight. They were maddeningly noisy on the street (and the dirtiest pad I've ever used) and far less than confidence inspiring on the track. I took them off my M3 immediately after their first track day and never put them on again.

I'm running AXXIS Ultimates on my current E36, installed them immediately after buying the car last year. I like them a lot, they work fantastic on the street, and I've never noticed anything bothersome about them when autocrossing, so I'd say they work very well for autocross, too. If the HPS pads are significantly better, as you stated in your post, I'll definitely give them a try for my next set. (BTW, after trying several different race compound pads on track, I finally found a track pad I'm extremely happy with for BMW E36 - Hawk HT-10's.)

Keith

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Keith Q.
2008 Top Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmX8XuZ_DCo&NR=1

I got the HPS on the Miata and I'm very happy with them. They are on the car since almost 3 year now and approx. 26k miles. I remember when I install them that the feel was much better than what was on the car. I check them yesterday during an oil change and tires rotation and they still have plenty left. I didn't do that many autocross
with the car but for the one I did they work really good. On the street they are very good and I must that I'm not really easy on them.
On the Porsche I've been using the HP+ for the last 7 years or so. I'm using them for autocross and track. For the autocross they are very good, they work very well cold and remain consistent during the run, that was not the case with the black compound that doesn't work that well cold. For the track the HP+ work good on my car, I know, my car is light weight but I'm coming with an higher speed to the corner. For all the track I went I got no problem with them. I usually do 1 year with a set, the track being the major wear factor. On the street they will squeal under light breaking, so I just brake harder to keep them quiet. Being the way they are I will continue running on them.

Patrice

Good tech here!

I am considering a change from my PFC Carbon Metalics for street/autox. The PFC's are ok, but just dont have the bite I am looking for. Keep the Hawk HPS/HP+ comments coming!

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

Interesting. If this is typical for HP+, that pretty much rules them out for me. My ideal pad is one that has no temperature-related characteristics at all over the longest possible autocross. Sounds like HPS might be the ticket, if I can be convinced that fade would never, ever be an issue over a super-long laurinburg course.

The Ultimates even work better with a little heat. The HPS on my street BMW appear to not need any heat. First stop is 95%+

Of course if anyone has other recommendations besides HPS and HP+, lemme know. Since I'm cheap the HPS look very attractive for my car at $36 through Bimmerworld.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Thanks for the info Dick. You know, what you described above is what I call "modulation", and it's the thing that impressed me most about the HPS. I wish I could better understand what is going on with my my foot, my leg, the pedal, etc so I could better describe "feel".

Kevin A had some comments about the Ultimates that got me thinking they might not be the ultimate. They are good, no doubt, but now in comparison to the HPS they feel really numb...

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Mike,

Like most things in autox, I think it depends on what your true goals are and how you prioritize them. I now rank ease of modulation in autox well above absolute performance.

I put a set of HP+ on the Vette for a season. They dust very heavily, and they do squeal. Annoying, but that's not why I took them off after a season. Here's why:

The initial bite is tremendous. For a car without ABS, it might be too much so, and I can easily see how it would result in lockups on non ABS cars, especially on gritty surfaces. When you first put them on, you really think "oh my gosh, these things are awesome!"

The reason I got rid of them is because they made a driving habit I have even worse at the time. They stop the car so well that they work almost too well for autocross, for my driving preferences. A slight amount of pressure has a huge effect. It seemed like I could just touch the pedal and the nose would dive.

On the good side, I did not find them to be temperature sensitive at all. They stopped my 3400 lb car just fine at the end of first straight at an autox.

They were not easy to modulate to get the exact amount of braking I wanted. I'm trying to get away from overslowing the car and I do a whole lot less threshold braking than I once did. Jim Pastorius was actually the first guy I remember who wisely kept beating on me about braking sooner than I was and overbraking. (thanks Jim!)

And for me, I found that since I was over-slowing the car, I needed to brake a litttle less. With the HP+, I only had to use relatively slight pedal pressure to practically threshold brake the car. My leg and foot and instincts just didn't adjust very well to trying to slow down less with those pads.

For lack of better direction, I then went with the Performance Friction Z rated AutoZone pads. They do fine but they don't feel as "dramatic". Braking force seems perfectly proportional to pedal force to me, which is what I really needed. In fact, when I first put the PFZs on the car after the Hawks, I thought I had a serious brake problem. I went to try and stop the car and I thought I was going to have to bend the pedal to get the car to stop. I went back and reinspected my brake job!

My foot adjusted quickly though and now it seems fine. The PFZs are ok, but I have no doubt that the HP+ may stop the car a few feet shorter than the PFZs.

I've learned that I have to find a pad that fits my driving style and my car's temperament, not just the pad with the best performance characteristics on paper. More talented drivers than I could probably make the HP+ work fine for autox.

I continue to hear things about the HPS that make me want to try a set when the PFZs wear out, in about five seasons. There is something to be said though for finding a pad you like and sticking with it.

Hope this helps.

Miles

I now have some experience with Miles' Corvette using the PFC Z pads. On his car they seem to work just fine for me also. By this I mean that they behave just like I want/expect so I certainly will not be lobbying for Miles to buy different pads.

Dick

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

Mike, if you can run the HPS and not have any issues (highly doubtful you would at an autocross) you should. They are an excellent street pad and very forgiving. The HP+ is good, but has a sharper delta mu/delta T curve. With single channel ABS like your old BMW has (I think) you obviously want to avoid any spikes. The HP+, once at temperature absolutely provides more bite, but if you need the car to stop fastetr, just press the pedal harder.

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Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/

That was definitely the nail in the coffin for the HP+ for autocross. It sounds like it tries a little too hard to be a "dual purpose" pad for my application.

I'll order a set of HPS. Which is fine, cause they are cheaper than HP+

Mike (who went from Axxis Ultimates on 3 cars to Hawk HPS on 3 cars in 12 months)

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

I've run the PFC (regular ones, not PFC-Z) and Hawk HP+ in my C4.

One thing I found out between these brands is that it feels like PFC pads are progressive and Hawks are linear. I apparently like linear brake feel. Miles likes the PFC-Z for that progressive feel and gave me his HP+ to try last year. I loved them and ran them for autocross and on the street all year long. Since I was left foot braking and wanted to be able to just squeeze the pedal the HP+ worked for very well for me. They need a little heat but not much and would easily last through a long Laurinburg course.

If I was keeping the C4 I would definetely consider HPS or possibly the Carbotech Panthers. The HP+ dust like crazy. And the dust is nasty and once it gets wet it seems to take set and stick to the wheels. You really need to wash the wheels a lot with those pads. I never really had squeeking problems but I don't do much city driving. I do think the HP+ are a little much for the street for everyday driving. The HPS seems like a good compromise. And cheaper than the HP+.

Graham

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http://www.greywinds.com

I hate to be stupid, but what the heck do you mean when you between "progressive" and "linear"? I can understand modulation of the brake pedal, but you've got me on this one. Can you explain please?

signed...confused

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Rodney

'08 Bullitt mustang, CAM 7
Autox VP '09-'10, President '11-'12, interim President 2nd half of ‘14
proud recipient of the Bowie Grey service award '12
Now just a guy driving a mustang....

Linear is easier to explain. Scale your braking force from 0 to 10 in equal increments where 0 is off the pedal and 10 is ABS or lockup. Now, with that braking force, there is a corresponding amount of pedal force that your foot needs to transmit. A linear pad, you put in 10% of the force that would cause lockup, and you get to 1 on your scale. 20%, 2 and so forth. With a progressive pad, you get input 20% and you may only get 1 on your braking scale. Maybe by 50% of your foot force, you are only at 2.5 on your braking force scale. That means that the last 50% of your effort has to cover 7.5 points on your braking scale.

Why can (note can, not is) a progressive pad be better? On the street, where light brake application is the norm, it is typically much easier to be smooth while using a progressive pad. A linear pad, most drivers will complain is too 'grabby'. In a performance application, a progressive pad is more forgiving of sudden driver inputs as it generally takes longer to bite and is quicker to release.

Hope this helps. Please note, that there is common misconception that a progressive pad is one where the amount of foot force you need to go from 0 to 10 on your brake force scale is greater. This is completely incorrect. Given a fixed braking system (aka just swapping pads) this is indicative of a lower mu, not progressivity in a pad.

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Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/