THSCC Forums

Question of the day....Have we as a club made AX too complex?

Any one ever run a NASA AX? No trailer, no display, no PA, no tent, no computer. They have a pickup, jumper cables, cones, timer, radios, scorecards and pens. For $30, you get 6-8 runs at VMP.

Oh yes, they have duck tape! At the December event, the timer head (refletor side) was crushed by the McGeorge STi. Five minutes later, I had duck taped the pieces to the asphalt and the event continued on.

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

I believe the answer to that is "yes."

Not that I don't like some of our complexity, but I think we might be trying a little too hard at times.

Scott

It's those damn cheater tires, I tells ya!

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

Welcome to this century Jim. Everything is more complex. Like the device with which you are receiving this message. What do you do for a living? I'll bet it's something complex helping to pay you enough to afford to attend the other "simple" events.

Sure I can do w/o cruise control, a cell phone, remote windows, keyless entry, XM radio, EFI, and radial tires...but why would I want to? We could use stop watches, wait that's too high-tech, lets count 1001, 1002, etc. to time our events.

BTW, this reminds me of my Dad saying "I tell ya boy, I useta hafta walk uphill, both ways, in the snow, with no shoes, to and from da school house."

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Vincent Keene
'06 Ford Mustang GT (track rat)
'15 Dodge Charger R/T (yeah, it's got a HEMI!)
'07 Ford Fusion SE (205,000 miles and counting)
'98 Chevy Z-24 (retired)
'93 Acura Integra (Team SWB 24HOL Car)

See, Jim, now you're doing the same thing as the people in the 9 page thread about your event.

Are you interested in making useful suggestions and helping solve problems, or are you just trying to get under people's skin, undermine people's efforts, and try to tear down accomplishments? From where I sit it's the latter.

Here's what I would do if I were you. I'm obviously not.

Suggest something to get rid of or simplify. Start a poll. If the majority want to do without something and the officers agree, BAM - gone.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

What is "too" complex?

And what is wrong with "more" complex than other people do it under the skin if it makes the VPs and Event Chair's jobs easier?

I can come up with a dozen cases where we have worked hard on making something work RIGHT however complex it is, just so it won't f*ck up at an event and make people's jobs hell.

Why do I feel that we're starting to backpedal here?

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

What is "too" complex?

And what is wrong with "more" complex than other people do it under the skin if it makes the VPs and Event Chair's jobs easier?

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Old bus:
6 tires.

New bus:
8 tires, but they aren't enough, so we need to make it 10. We did this for lower costs, but I'm still not convinced (we'll see in 5 years).

The more gimmicks and tricks we have to make our lives "simpler," the more points of failure we have. Do we really think that our autocrosses are more fun than NASA or VMSC's events because of all our fancy equipment?

OK, I'll admit, they might be a little more fun, but I highly doubt that it actually justifies the cost.

Has everyone somehow forgotten the night series already? Mike, wasn't that one of your ideas? Wasn't the goal of that *simplicty.*? Wasn't it fun?

I don't actually have a problem with this thread, and it's not a "slam" on anyone, or anything we do. It's just a philisophical question, and based on the *pages* of arguing on the other threads, I'd say it's a relevant question to ponder.

Look back to the "gravity pen" comments. If you're Father's Day card is written with one of those and it says "I love you Dad!" does that actually mean more to you than the same message scrawled in crayon?

Different tools, one decidely low tech, the other high tech, yet the message is EXACTLY the same.

Scott

To get back on topic, I have run with NASA-VA (now NASA-MA) several times. Every time, I had a good time. My third ever event was a co-autocross/drift event sponsored by them at the deserted mall in Chesterfield. It was timed with stopwatches. I had an absolute ball with so many runs that I stopped counting around the mid twenties. That's right, over thirty runs on a 35 second course. I've also ran with them in the rain at VMP. Good time there too, I got around ten runs because people didn't show up.

But what's the downside of that? No real competition. I should not have beaten several WRXes and an STi in the rain on a 65 second course. In a grocery getter.

Excellence means that eventually more is expected from you, and we have the privilege of giving that to club members and/or "customers" that just arrive, drive, and leave. Which is why we stay in the black and can afford goodies rather than throw shit in the back of a pickup and just mail in an event.

Heck, I've attended events put on by three other clubs in the year since I started this money-hemmorhage that we call autocross, some clubs didn't even provide, umm, facilities at events. (Pick a tree, any tree)

But in all, there's one thing that I really like about what we do, when you excel in this club you *know* that you've had a great day.

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

i had a real long post all ready to go, but i decided it was too much to read...so here it is in a nutshell

added features are always associated with added pain...eventually the pain will go away and all you'll be left with are the features...i wasn't here to see it, but i'll be that the timing system that we rely on today was a pain in the crackers when it was first used....now, we just hook it up and run with only the occasional issue....with any luck, all the "complexities" we have added will end up the same way.

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05 MCS

Todd/Gordon- Chris just volunteered to replace one of yall next season. Thanks Chris!

Edit: But I do see the point (but I also get the emails when things don't work as planned).

Scott

1) All resources, human and monies would be put towards securing sites that are within 30 minutes of the center of Raleigh. Okay, from the RDU airport. The club goal, to have 2 decent sites for 2006.

2) Drop the bus. Simply use the trailer to haul the basics. Any member with a truck can deliver and pick it up. You go from one driver to the possibilty of many drivers.

3) All courses have to start and end within 10-15 yards of timing.

4) Eliminate the fixation with Saturday set up. This is a huge burden on people, both time and money. Two caveats though:
- with all the sites quite a hual for members, getting there at dawn requires getting up stupid early.
- if the trailer could be delivered beforehand, it would make it easier.
- we did this at the RBC center for the last event. Bus there the day before and set up the morning of the event. Hell, we did it for every night event.

5) Eliminate the number of non-essential workers. Determine how many are required for course and work backwards.
- tech 2 people
- T&S - 3 people per heat.
- grid - 1 person
-
-etc, etc

6) Eliminate trophy presentations after the event. Auditing could occur after the event. Hell, only a half dozen of the people standing around help with clean up. No reason to have 40 people watching


Hey, they are just ideas....

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

This particular example I can speak to with some authority.

When we first went with TS98 (1999 IIRC), we had 2 people that worked the computer in timing all day long for about a year. Those 2 people switched off every other heat, so they could also drive. Those people also held registrar and A-X VP positions at the time, so they were plenty busy in addition to working nearly 100% of timing.

As we learned the pitfalls of the TS98 system, and as certain members put in alot of behind the scenes work on results/bumping/etc we were able to teach a good core group of people how to run timing with a computer (today's timing and scoring team), nobody had to sit and type in results after the event to get them posted (and if you've never done that, it's a PITA), and results are often posted as soon as people get home after the event. There are plusses. If we were still using paper, people would still be waiting weeks, perhaps even until the H&T came out, to get the final results.

At the time I moved (Sept 2003), T&S was far less of a hassle than it was when we first said "Hey, let's go with a computer based timing system.", supporting the assertation that these things get easier with time.

Heck, we had a timing and scoring team that did just fine with paper. Given that, why would we even think of introducing a computer? Progress. Things progress. We like that. I imagine there will be growing pains of going to AXWare, but I also imagine that the benefits, in the end, will outweigh the downsides.

Just my $.02...

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Diane (Hall) Bundas
1992 Spec Miata #48 - 1997 Chevy Tahoe - 2007 Honda Civic Coupe

don't worry scott...i will be putting my name in the hat for something next year...i doubt it will be todd/gordon's job as i don't have the experience/skills to perform either job admirably.

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05 MCS

1 - where are these sites?..i didn't think it is either human or monitary restrictions were holding us back from this one.

2 - you don't know what you've got until you don't have it anymore...the bus not only supplies t&s with a place to run the show (under cover, out of the sun, away from the noise, etc.) but it supplies all the power to run the pa, the computer, printer, timer, display...etc...what would all that be run off of?

3 - 10 - 15 yards, that's a pretty tight start and finish ...but i think i get where you are going...no wireless right...well, i think the wireless will be a great asset that will give us some flexibility with course design if we could iron out the "complexities" and give it a chance

4 - the event i chaired last year was setup on a saturday and i imagine the one i do this year will be the same...it was a pain i'll admit, but that's why we rotate event chairs right, so not everyone has to do it all the time...if we could get it all done on sunday morning i'm game for that too

5 - agreed

6 - i could go either way on the trophy presentation, but i think having as many people as possbible help clean up is a good thing.

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05 MCS