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What car isn't really really hard to drive to consistent #1 PAX?!? Let me know so I can go do some car shopping...

Honestly though, I realize what your saying. However, I don't know if I agree completely. There are alot of variables involved obviously. The AWD turbo monsters tend to be a "point and shoot" proposition, whereas other cars I've driven since jumping the AWD bandwagon, require more finesse. Maybe to eke that last little bit out requires a more finessable chassis, I wouldn't know, since I've never managed to eke out that last little bit. The nationals results seem to support what your saying for the most part, although, I don't think the story has been played out completely yet. I do know one thing, I said goodbye to top 10 PAX finishes about the same time I said goodbye to AWD...

Perhaps I am confused, but given that the PAX is aimed at equalizing times between different cars and if one car consistently does very well in the PAX irrespective of driver skill, then aren't there only two logical reasons:
1 - the car is in the wrong class and therefore has the an overly favorable PAX being applied or
2 - the car is very easy to drive, hides driver faults and requires a lower level of skill in order to extract excellent performance?

Sort of an extention of the "you don't have to be as good if the car is better" arguement. Better can just mean in absolute terms or comparative to your competitors.

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Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/

I said goodbye to top 20 PAX when I lost a hundred horsepower and an easy index ...

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

The STi is mis-classed in ESP - just watch Tom Hoppe's (and others') results this year... it's going to be sooo ugly.

Subarus and other AWD cars in general are easy to drive somewhat fast, because you don't have to modulate the throttle so much. It's more like an off/on switch most of the time. I was still pretty fast last year even when I was driving like a noob, mostly because of the AWD. STi's are REALLY easy to drive fast because of the extra technology that's added to them, but you still have to be a pretty decent driver to get close to 100% out of them - just like with any other car.

Maybe we should all drive Marcus & Brian's cars at some point so we can find out for sure?

Best damn idea in this whole thread!

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02 Focus SVT
STF 9

I've driven Marcus's car...handles very well AND is still smooth on the street. I think Brian's got a similar setup as well so i'm sure he'll be rockin' this year.

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Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.

Sounds like a plan...

Oh wait, that means someone would be stuck driving my old-fashioned Honduh.

Eh, I would like to confess that I FEEL like AWD does give you somewhat of an advantage.

I say that as I came into this club half way down the order on my first autoX, and I have stayed ~top 20 with both the WRX and now the STi. Both of these were done with cars with absolutely no car setup other than playing with tire pressures.

Hmm... I don't know. It bothers me not knowing how much is the AWD car, and how much is me. Either way, I would like to see HOW FAR I can push this car and how fast I can make it against some of the REALLY good drivers in THSCC.

Either way, we got Kevin in a WRX this year, so let's see how a GOOD driver does in a WRX. I think that will be the telling point of how much is the car, and how much is the driver. Due to the popular hypothesis, he should be untouchable other than someone in an STi.

We will see. I don't believe that. Let's just remember that everyone was owned in Greenville by a stock Acura Integra RSX Type S. I think it just proves a good driver driving at the limit of his index is going to out shine an 'overdog' car.

We will see.

- brian

the potential of the car is only limited by the driver Look no further than Tom winning STX nationally in his WRX. It's a compliment to him, the car and the setup (which is just as important).

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www.ncvw.org
1993 VW Corrado VR6 - DSP15 (RIP)
1986 MB 190E 2.3L 16v - STX (SOLD)
1997 BMW M3 3.2L - BS for now

i think a good drivers is recogized as someone that dos things in cars that shouldn't be able to be done as well as being able to get into any car (fwd, rwd, 2wd, 4wd, big hp, no hp, etc) and run it well.

being that you are in an STi, you are behind the 8-ball b/c you are starting with one of the baddest cars out there...buy hey, look at Phil Wehman...he drives that bad ass caterham to the limit and i would consider him a good driver.

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05 MCS

I'll be more interested to see what Kevin does in the STT Miata he is rumored to be driving this year part time. In some ways I think Kevin's 2.5RS was a better auto-x car than a WRX. I drove it when I had my WRX and was very impressed. Primarily because it had low end torque and no turbo lag, of course any course that allows full throttle acceleration for more than a second or so, and the WRXs power advantage will start to show.

Kevin is obviously a great driver, noone regardless of "car advantage" could win Top Gun at THSCC without a great deal of driving skill. Same applies to you Brian, obviously you are a skilled driver, if it was all car, everyone who showed up in a WRX would be crammed into the top ten PAX, and that is simply not the case. All anyone is really saying is that it is significantly easier to do relatively well in a WRX (same applies to some other high power, relatively lightweight, AWD cars) as a beginning autocrosser. Same applies to an STI to an even higher degree, simply because its capabilities are higher. No one is seriously trying to say that its *all* car.

Keep in mind also that my statements are coming from experience. That doesn't necessarily mean everyone will have the same results. Obviously YMMV. However, if the '99 results archives were up, you could peruse them and see that in my rookie season I showed up in an AWD turbo car and managed several top 10 PAX finishes at THSCC and TSCC events with a GS car on street tires (before Azenis or the ST* classes existed). In one of the last events of '99 in Morrisville, I think I was 6th in the PAX behind the likes of Jonathan Roberts, Eric Peterson, and GH Sharp and ahead of great names like Dan Ecclestone, Aaron Buckley, Scott Johnson, and yes even Mike Whitney (all in their rookie seasons also and not in AWD cars). I realize this will come as a surprise to anyone whose been in the club less than two years, what happened two years ago you ask, I left AWD cars behind. Coincidence, maybe, there are certainly many other factors involved. However, I can easily tell you how many times in the past two years I've finished top then PAX or ahead of those other drivers in the PAX list. The answer to that would be a big fat Zero.

Ok, that's it - I'm sticking to AWD cars. I don't want to be the next Les Davis!

I would highly recommed it for the sake of your ego. Honestly, your accomplishments (skills) are much higher than mine ever were, so I doubt you'd ever do very poorly regardless of car. The main difference is probably not even that AWD cars are that much better, just that they are so different and require a very different approach. Since I'm such a slow learner, its taking me a long time to unlearn so much of the AWD "approach."

Well, I was horribly slow in Mike's BMW with Falkens at the night series events. I think I was about 2 seconds slower after 3 runs than I was in my 2.5RS with the same tires. Loose car plus being used to AWD made for a fun couple of runs, though. Of course, when Mike drove my car he was almost as fast as he was in his car - advantage, AWD.

Mitch Moore's Boxster, though - I was definitely having a lot of fun with that, and didn't go quite so slowly. But those are supposed to be the easiest rwd cars to drive fast ever, or something like that. I think if I get enough play time with rwd I'll get used to it & get pretty good at it. The thing is, I have this WRX... I have these free R compounds... I LOVE to go really fast... so if the Miata is too much slower than the WRX (which I'm sure it will be by a LOT) and isn't FUN enough to overcome the speed deficit... I'll HAVE to run ESP.

Like Mike said, it's not all about winning, it's mostly about going ridiculously fast. I know that driving the rwd car will make me a better driver, but if I can't get reasonably fast in the Miata this weekend, I may just decide to run ESP until I wear out the tires. (edit: and then buy some Hoosiers! ) Either way, the decision process should be a lot of fun.

Maybe I should co-drive a CSP Miata, instead of an STT Miata? Anybody looking for a co-driver?

I'd say it was Whitney's ability to sit in anything and go fast that might have helped him drive your, my and any other car fast. Not which wheels are driven by the engine.

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.