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 Post subject: NCRSCCA Autocross event, Sept. 26
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 12:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:27 pm
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Location: Wilmington
Just a heads-up, NCR has obtained a new event site here in Wilmington, and the first event will be September 26. I'm taking my first stab at course design, so hopefully there won't be too many complaints. I hope some of you can make it.

Here's teh link:
http://www.ncrscca.com/Autocross.htm

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:04 pm 
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any thscc-ers going to this?

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 Post subject: Re: NCRSCCA Autocross event, Sept. 26
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:46 pm 
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Doug Jackson wrote:
I'm taking my first stab at course design


Want some unsolicited advice? :) No personal motivation here, since I won't be there!

- Multiply the SCCA min gate width (15'?) by 1.5 at least
- It's always tighter than you think it will be
- After laying out the course you think you want, go pick up 1/2 of the cones that don't matter (the ones cars would never hit)
- Never make a slalom shorter than 15 paces :)
- Why use a chicago box? Make a 3 cone slalom (same thing)

I'm really glad to see that there are more autocrosses being held these days. Takes some load off of us!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:40 pm 
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Location: Wilmington
Gate width is going to be 20' min. I'll try clearing out as many conse as possible. Slalom distance will be 45' min. Everything else will you will have to wait and see. :D

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 Post subject: course design
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:42 pm 
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A forty-five foot slalom is pretty tight, even in a small car. A sixty foot slalom is a "typical" medium paced slalom, if there is such a thing. Open it up to 70 feet or above and it starts to get really quick! We save those for airports. The 45' slalom spacing is the SCCA minimum and it is painful. That also applies to any series of gates that has the same effect as a slalom. In other words, don't put your gates that close together.

To avoid the sea of cones effect, make sure the distances between gates is far enough that there is no question about which pairs of cones form the next gate. It may sound silly, but I've seen courses, which at speed, it was difficult to tell which pairs of cone belonged together to form a gate. For example a few 30' wide gates spaced only 45' apart can be pretty confusing at 60 mph.

You mentioned that you would use 20' gate widths.... don't do that on every gate. Let the gate width vary as the site dimensions and course design allow. For example, in a sweeper, if you mark the inside and outside edge with a gate, it's ok for those cones to be 40' apart or more, if you have the space. Give folks the flexibility to choose their line.

For your first course, either measure things off with a tape measure, or practice pacing next to a tape measure so you know how many feet your paces are! I have to stretch a bit to make sure I get 3' paces, but I can do it consistently. I know because I practiced it against a tape measure and I "recalibrate" myself now and then. Ok laugh. I hear you already.

Be sure to read the SCCA rule book on course design. Get Roger Johnson's course design handbook off the Internet. It's detailed and filled with examples and great advice. You can download it here, and get some other great info:

http://home.houston.rr.com/rogerthereal/

I like Mike's tips, and here's a few of my own to add to your list:

1) To make a course "flow" generally means that one gate somewhat naturally leads to another. If you exit a gate with the car pointed 20 deg to the left and the next gate is offset 70 deg to the right and only 60 feet away, you have what we call a tire grinding exercise. Try to avoid those!

2) Remember that novices typically drive looking over the hood of the car trying to find the next gate. So, be sure to try this visual trick to test for possible DNF areas. Stand at each gate, and then look at the next gate in front of you. If you don't see any part of the gate after that in your vision, chances are that a novice will DNF -- unless the course is properly marked. Put a pointer cone, or two or three if needed in the line of sight of the novice that points to the next gate. This is mostly needed when you have a gate that is significantly offset to the side and it isn't readily visible. The Solo book states that the course is not supposed to be a memory contest. It isn't that memorization doesn't help, but a novice should not have to remember every gate just to be able to find it!

3) Think about the line you want the cars to drive, considering avoiding damaged pavement, holes, ruts, and staying away from hard objects appropriately. Then go back and lay out the cones where you need them to be in order to encourage that line. If done properly, most of the cones are not in a location close the line the cars will drive. A few cones might be, but most of them will not. This will allow driver's to choose their line, and minimize cone counts.

4) Be extra careful with sweepers and slaloms near hard objects. Avoid this if possible. Remember that cars sometimes spin in a sweeper and end up on the INSIDE of the turn. It's happened to me numerous times, especially in ABS equipped cars.

5) If I remember correctly Roger Johnson had some good keys for how to tell if your design was a success:

a) It favored neither high or low hp cars
b) There were very few DNFS, at least due to people getting lost. (This means the course was easy to follow and well marked.)
c) Cone count was low.
d) It rewards experienced drivers. Part of the way you do that is to allow drivers to choose their line. If all your gates are 15' or 20' wide, there isn't much room for choices.

Food for thought. This is subjective topic, so I'm sure there will be contrasting thoughts here. And I know you never asked for tips on course design! Hey, Whitney started it!

Good luck!

Miles


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:03 pm 
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Location: Wilmington
I'll look at gate width again. The lot has many wheel-stops that we have been removing over the past week. By the time the event rolls around, we should have enough moved to allow wider gate spacing while maintaining vehicle and participant safety. The barriers and some light poles and fire hydrants are defining what we can do for this event, but the site owner has not asked us to put the barriers back and seems enthusiastic about letting us remove most, if not all the barriers and allow more flexibility in the future. This will be a fun course if not the most technical. I'm trying to add enough variety to let everyone have fun.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:38 am 
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Location: Wilmington
Well, the course is set up now. We ran into a few snags but I think it came out pretty well overall. There were several on-site changes as we laid it out yesterday, I got overruled on some of my ideas but I don't think there will be much of a "Sea of Cones" effect. I did have some trouble making clear transitions from one area to another, and I think it's clear now, but we'll see how it goes Sunday.

Afterward if anyone has constructive criticism, I want to hear it. If it really sucks, let me know.

Thanks!

Doug

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'90 Miata A-package, Floats like a butterfly and buzzes like a BEE with loudspeakers.


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 Post subject: Wilmington-Constructive Criticism
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:39 pm 
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Location: Fuquay-Varina, NC
Doug Jackson wrote:
I got overruled on some of my ideas but I don't think there will be much of a "Sea of Cones" effect.

Afterward if anyone has constructive criticism, I want to hear it. If it really sucks, let me know.


Doug: After the Safety Steward got finished with his tweak, you ended up with an OCEAN of cones facing novices after the first 180-deg turn-around. Not your fault, though. Just made for lots of delays for the cone-shaggers to retrieve multiple cones, especially after the stupid spectacle put on by the 007 Corvette driver and the Viper. 8)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:09 am 
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Location: Wilmington
I have calmed down now and understand why he did what he did, but it was unnecessary in my opinion. His primary concern about the turn-around was someone going to the left of center and possibly spinning out into the concrete barriers at worker station 5. I don't know that anyone did this however since it would have been so painful to pull over to the Left Hand.

Yes, James Bond (and his whole crew) and the viper definately got Un-Invited to any future events. I don't know if you saw the Turbo-II and 80's era Supra doing their routines, but I talked to them about researching a drifting event vs. doing spinouts at an autocross.

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'90 Miata A-package, Floats like a butterfly and buzzes like a BEE with loudspeakers.


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