THSCC Forums

In addition to all the other comments folks have made regarding converters:

I don't claim to be an electronic power supply designer but then maybe no one else who has commented so far is either. I do have "some" knowledge, however.

Relative "source" battery drain between DC to DC vs. DC to AC to DC will really depend on the efficiency of the units. You really need to determine the input power needed for a given output power which will give you the efficiency. Based on my limited experience with UPS's and power supplies I would assume that in general using one unit would be more efficient than using two units even though stepping up the DC voltage involves circuitry which converts the DC to AC and back to DC simply because the need to regulate and otherwise "condition/filter" the output won't be duplicated. There are so many different ways, with a variety of associated hardware costs, to skin these cats that you need to look at the specs. Even then, specs can be both misleading or downright lies. (Just like listening to politicians (either party) or business executives.

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Dick Rasmussen

FS 50 2018 Mustang GT

I don't really have a dawg in this fight, but I have owned several RVs and some of the club power needs are similar to what you'd find in using an RV. I've also followed the discussion fairly closely and have been referred to in the past as "an engineer" and have some sort of paper that agrees with that from a fairly related field (computer engineering, but that was born out of EE at NCSU and they still make you pay attention to some of that EE crud).

Anyway, while obviously a solution *can* be engineered that solves these basic needs using batteries and adapters of various sorts, I'm still at a loss as to why we still bother. A generator solution, while is arguably no *more* reliable is *certainly* easier to troubleshoot than what we currently do. At about $400 each these days, the club could get *two* 5000W generators and have complete redundancy. Or spend the extra dough and just get one of the ultra-quiet and small Honda 1000W generators. Connect the batteries we use now to its 12V output and they'd always be charged as the "backup" should the generator conk for some reason. Honda reliability, more quiet than a human conversation, and more flexible than what we have now.

Either that or find a decent deal on a used RV that already *has* a generator and replace the bus with it. I'll start combing the RV Trader for suitable ones as soon as I get the nod from club officials.

Most RVs come with awnings already, too! (Hey, when discussing one controversial issue I always find it's good to throw any other such issues in the mix.) And don't forget about AC!


--Donnie

And if the power in the RV works right you can get a motorized awning and go 1st class

Now Donnie don't go teasing the T&S folks and let them think their getting A/C. Next they'll want Color TV, a microwave oven and refrigerator in there and we'll have power problems all over again...

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http://www.greywinds.com

Donnie - I would be happy to explain to you, in person, why adding more equipment to the bus AND the the responsibilities of the officers is a really, really bad idea.

No one wants to take responsibility for any of our club's equipment. It will cause more headaches than it's worth. What's wrong with fixing the problems that we have and get back to "status quo"? Why is everyone so interested in spending money to cover up PROBLEMS?

Donnie, you called this "engineering a solution". I think you're missing the point.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

I guess to me maintaining a single generator seems easier than maintaining all the other random and sundry "stuff" that it takes to run this without one.

I guess it comes back to one thing, and that's my comment that I don't have a dawg in the fight. Why don't I? Because *I* don't maintain any of it. Whoever does maintain it should ultimately have the biggest voice in what the club does...at least until such time as it causes some sort of major problem for everyone else at an event. While there have been recent instances that were *thought* to be because of the current power system, it sounds like they ultimately were not (ie. the board not working right).

I can say without question that if I were maintaining that system I'd vote generator. I've worked in the bus, I've seen the stuff that's used, and I've heard the problems that *have* happened as a result of it. I believe firmly that a generator would be less trouble ultimately. But like I said, the current system hasn't caused *me* any grief, so I suppose I'll leave it to those who *do* work hard on it.


--Donnie

...me either, but I stayed at Holiday Inn last nite!


Now, about that awning...

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SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.

I should mention for the sake of everyone involved - I an not as "anti-generator" as I may seem. If I saw a plan that addressed my concerns, I would be fine with it.

The problem is that this isn't anyone's day job, and I know from past experience that no one will step up and do as good of a job as is required to make this less of a hassle than the current system - one guy would buy the generator and think his job is done, some other guy will hack it onto the bus with lamp cord and twist-on connections and a coat-hanger frame and think his job is done, and the future VPs will be left with trying to figure out why yet another thing isn't working right.

That's the prolem with it.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

A very high percentage of small, gasoline engine powered devices, that when used on an irregular basis (like once every month or six weeks, or are allowed to sit for four months) are really reliable and crank every time. Carbs get gummed up, and things just don't seem to work after awhile. Weed eaters, generators, small lawnmowers, they are in the same "reliability" category to me. You can take special precautions, such as draining the fuel from the carb each time you run it to keep it from getting gummed up, but even so, small engines are notoriously unreliable from my experience.

Does Honduh have a new fuel injected, super quiet, ultra reliable model that defies this experience? They may. If so, please tell me. I also saw a model of generator a year or so ago that is a variable speed generator. The output was constant voltage of course, and the engine speed changed as needed to make up for whatever current was being drawn. That thing was pretty sweet. That system keeps down noise, and fuel usage as it doesn't have to run at wide open throttle all the time.

My experiences may just be out of date with older technology. Hopefully the new stuff is better.

Going back to the issue of equipment maintenance... we have long needed a dedicated position/person in the club to manage our equipment. It may even need to be an "equipment team" of three of four people. The officers of the club have enough to do without troubleshooting equipment. Next year, it would be nice if we could formalize a method to take that job off of their hands. This would include someone to keep up with records of maintenance on the bus, take it in for repairs when needed, etc..

It is also not to soon to form an organized "transportation committee" to being researching the bus replacement. I know some thought has been put into that already, but it probably needs to become a serious, organized effort now.

Food for thought,

Miles

This "extra equipment" arguement is bogus!

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Jim Pastorius
2008 Silverado VortecMax
1992 Camaro CMC#92
2002 BMW R1150R

2009 3rd Place CMC Mid-Atlantic Championship
2009 CMC Hyperfest Winner

"Honduh" and Yamaha as well as others have been making quite reliable engines for quite some time. Maybe you need newer equipment?

My generator was purchased a while back in anticipation of the 2nd ice storm that never came. I run it at most 2 times a year for at most 20 minutes each time. It runs with the same 2+ year old gas that's been in the tank since I bought it. If I remember to flip the switch ot the "on" position before starting it it will start and run just fine on the 1st or 2nd pull. I do make sure to turn off the fuel to the carb and run it until it stalls before putting it away.

My mowers (I'm on my 2nd one) start every time as long as there is gas in the tank. Same for my weed eater. I leave the fuel in the carbs with the lawn equipment.

Modern generators should have the same reliability, if not better, since it will get used nearly once a month so the gas will be always fresh. We would also be a "light" duty user of a generator.

The Yamaha unit I have in mind will provide 1000W of clean power all day long on a single tank of gas. It will be a quiet 57dB at full throttle. If you are quiet, you might hear it over the keys on my keyboard clicking away. Anytime we start the bus we stink up the place, make unneeded noise, and it continually proves to be LESS reliable than my mowers, weed eater and generator. The Yamaha will also shut off automatically if the oil gets low (the bus won't do that).

The generator weighs *less* than a single battery that we currently use, and it takes about 30 seconds to recharge a generator.

http://www.southwestfastener.com/ef1000is.html

As for wiring, there is a minimalist approach. It's called an extension cord and power strip. Use AC for what needs it, and convert all the 12V DC stuff to power bricks and everything plugs right in. NO FUSS IMHO. If we don't want to convert to power bricks, then we can always run the DC stuff off of the 12V DC output of the generator.

Even at a relatively pricey $620 it would likely run flawlessly for a minimum of 2 years, at which time it is *almost* disposable.

As for maintainence, I can change the oil and spark plug in less time it takes to charge the multiple batteries on the bus, AND I would only need to do it once per season rather than the suggested EVERY event battery recharging.

The two LARGE batteries connected to the bus' charging system would be the "redudant" backup.

When the bus bites the dust the generator is portable for it's replacement. Most any upgrades done to the bus will expire when it expires.

Of course, we are still making a big stink about nothing since on page 1, post 2 of this thread we already determined that there are issues with the current wiring and *those* are the real problem.

Scott

Won't the "current wiring" be eliminated if we plugged the laptop, printer, and timer into the generator?

-Tom

That depends on which "generator half-thought-out proposal" you're listening to.

1. Free-standing generator with extension cord and power strip run through window, with 6-8 power bricks attached to it. (Never mind the fact that some of our stuff is 12v only now and we would need to find power convertors)

2. Free-standing generator with extension cord and power strip as a above plus a 12v power line run through window to dedicated 12v stuff

3. #2 but with 12v line tied into existing 12v system (not going to solve any problems)

4. #1 but roof or undercarriage mounted and integrated wiring

5. #2 but roof or undercarriage mounted and integrated wiring

6. #3 but roof or undercarriage mounted.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Explain yourself. Do you have *any* idea how hard I have tried to get people to simplify operations in the bus?!?!? Hardwired PA. Ditched the big speakers. Stopped mounting and unmounting the radio. Etc. Etc.

I bet you're going to bring up the wireless. It is not something we rely on. It is optional and an enabler.

If we put in a generator, we will come to rely on it. Therefore it needs to be properly planned before it is implemented, or our successors will be left with the same kind of non-working pile of shit that we have with our current system.

Repeat after me "Not MORE but BETTER"

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

We don't use or need the loose batteries in the bus. They are for backup purposes only.

I'm surprised you think we need to charge those every event. They haven't been used but once or twice this year as far as I know...

The solar trickle charger on the dashboard will also charge one battery to capacity before an event.

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

Real men use generators......



I was imagining a 3 head extension cord with the laptop, printer, and the timer plugged into it. We can then just use the current wiring/batteries to run just the PA.

-Tom