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 Post subject: LMS Mustang (affordable) for F Street
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:30 am 
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I know there are multiple Mustang experts in the club so I thought this would be a good place to get some advice. A friend of mine is interested in getting a 2006 - 08ish GT 5 speed to compete in FS. I saw that 07 GTs came in P3 and P8 (last trophy) at Nats. What does he need to look for and stay away from in his search?

What are the best/most affordable shock options. Other that shocks and a front bar do the cars need anything else to be competitive locally.

Thanks
Eric P.


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 Post subject: Re: LMS Mustang (affordable) for F Street
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:41 pm 
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No expert here, but Strano did pretty well with the 2006-2007 Shelby GT (not to be confused with the GT500). The 2008-2009 Bullitt has done well also. Most give the edge to the Shelby because of the lower ride height and stiffer swaybars - even though the Bullitt has better gearing (3.73). I know Strano had posted shock settings and tire pressures that worked best for him - don't remember where I saw that. Camber/Crash bolt are a necessity to get a bit more camber.

Here's a link to Strano's car details when it was sold after winning FS 3 years straight.
http://www.sccaforums.com/forums/aft/413159

Cash

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 Post subject: Re: LMS Mustang (affordable) for F Street
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:52 pm 
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My stiffness is only an illusion
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It would be preferred to buy a '07 or up. You can take advantage of the stiffer frame as all mustangs, V6, GT and the GT 500 all rode on the same body. If you can go w/ an '08, you get past the carbon fouling on the spark plugs. In '08 the head was changed to mitigate this issue.

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 Post subject: Re: LMS Mustang (affordable) for F Street
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:00 pm 
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You're just jealous

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:14 pm
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Location: Raleigh, NC
Eric Peterson wrote:
I know there are multiple Mustang experts in the club so I thought this would be a good place to get some advice. A friend of mine is interested in getting a 2006 - 08ish GT 5 speed to compete in FS. I saw that 07 GTs came in P3 and P8 (last trophy) at Nats. What does he need to look for and stay away from in his search?

What are the best/most affordable shock options. Other that shocks and a front bar do the cars need anything else to be competitive locally.

Thanks
Eric P.


Those GT's were actually Shelby GT's or option package conversion equivalents. The P3 car actually was fastest in class on the West course. For local and for national competitiveness the off the shelf Koni Sports are what people are using. (aka what Art has that he beats me with even though I have them also in my 2012). The Mustangs run the stock front bar with a Strano adjustable rear in many cases but apparently all the fast guys run the middle position which is the same rate as stock.

The standard GT's of those model years have not done well at Nationals due to increased ride height and softer springs compared to the SGT. Plus in some situations the rev limiter in the standard GT's is "not autocross friendly" like the SGT's and my 2012 GT. I guess a newer model year to be sure that 18x8.5 inch wheels were an option.

For those years I think he should make sure it has the 3:55 (or 3.54?) rear end. For newer (2011 plus) ones the 3:31 (gear boxes are different and so are rev limits but those are the best ratios afaik for both versions. Newer cars look for the "Brembo Brake version because it also has 19x9 inch wheels versus 19x8 or 19x8.5 for the standard GT (like mine). However many of the Brembo brake cars came with 3.73 rear ends. However, if the car has the "track pack" or whatever it was called in 2013 and maybe 2014 the diff will be a torsen with 3.73's versus the normal clutch type that the rest of us have.

FYI Brian Burdette the 5th place car/driver in a 2012 GT was the F Stock winner in 2013. The 7th place car, John Kanalas, is a 2013 GT with the 3.73/torsen diff.

My understanding is that camber adjustment is actually with standard bolts but with slotting of one of the strut mounting holes (lower as I recall on mine). Stay with the stock bolts. In fact getting the current version of the stock bolts might be a good idea. Then blue loctite the bolts and torque them VERY tight (Sam Strano will tell him exactly what is needed). Then check periodically. Otherwise the strut starts moving and ultimately the upright breaks. Max camber is about -1.7 or maybe a bit more in the earlier cars based on what the Ford manual indicates. Again, Sam can explain.

FYI if I get a new Mustang next Spring I'll have at least the adjustable rear bar and a set of 18x8.5 wheels for sale. Maybe also an extra set of stock 18x8's. Probably won't bother removing the Koni's unless really motivated to do the work or watch someone else do it. :lol:

Dick

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 Post subject: Re: LMS Mustang (affordable) for F Street
PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:19 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 10:24 am
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All good info! Thanks for the help!!


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 Post subject: Re: LMS Mustang (affordable) for F Street
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:31 pm 
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Honda >> Ford
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Posts: 2052
Wow, sorry that I missed this thread. Speaking for the plain old GT, yes, the rev limiter (about 6250) is punitive. You have to back off 500 rpm before you get power again. With 3.55 final drive, you have to be careful about not going too small on tire diameter. So, a car with the standard 3.31 final drive would probably be just fine with lower profile tires. That's what Michael Westerfield's '08 had and it was neck and neck with my car and Rodney's white Mustang.

I would change the rear bar instead of the front. Under the old Stock category rules, Strano said to go with a softer front bar, perhaps the stiffer (34mm, I think) of the V6 bars.

For 2006-2009, get a set of 18x8.5 wheels. Stock offset is 50mm, but if you find a set with 45mm, then you don't have to worry about changing the steering rack limiters if the car came with 17x8 wheels.

I got the camber bolts and slotted the lower mounting hole of the front struts (Koni Sports), using the stamping on the stock strut as a guide. Here are my notes from my discussion with Strano about this modification:
1) The stock struts are not stamped consistently, so the accepted SCCA Solo II stock-class practice for aftermarket struts on 2005+ Mustangs is to open up the bottom hole to the outboard side by up to 0.075”, making an oval. He suggested using a rat-tail file for the modification, and to make the edge of the hole round.
2) Sam said the goal is -2 degrees of camber, and 1/16” total toe-out.

(That said, on my car this mod as executed by Digital Chassis got me -1.8 degrees. I'm running a "heavy" 1/32" toe out. I figure the OEM bushings are getting old and deflect a bit when underway.)

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 Post subject: Re: LMS Mustang (affordable) for F Street
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:24 am 
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Thanks Art!


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 Post subject: Re: LMS Mustang (affordable) for F Street
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:12 am 
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Anybody have insight into 2015 F-street yet? I assume the 2015 Mustang is going to be classed in F-street. Thoughts on the new M3/M4? Will it go straight to F-street too? Unlike the 2015 Mustang, the M3/M4 is a pretty substantial change in straight line performance with 1/4 mile times of 12.0 @119mph typical, 0-60 3.7 seconds, etc. I say unlike since looking at the 2015 Mustang tests it looks to still be a bit slower than the prior (E90) generation M3 in acceleration. Hence in straight line performance, there's now a huge disparity between the two new designs.

The M3/M4 are bigger in every external dimension than the E9x M3, but at the same time, for an equal level of options, it appears the new car is about 100-120lbs lighter than the E9x. So that is a mixed bag, lighter (and stiffer) chassis, but larger external dimensions.

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 Post subject: Re: LMS Mustang (affordable) for F Street
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:46 pm 
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Don't I have something better to do?
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Driving a larger car in autox definitely slows you down. Going from the Corvette last year to the S2000 this year highlighted it for Me. The Corvette is way faster in every way possible, but the S2000 is so narrow it can skip through slaloms without turning as much. I turn roughly the same raw times in either because of it. The more you turn the slower you go.

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 Post subject: Re: LMS Mustang (affordable) for F Street
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:04 pm 
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Am I the only one that finds it interesting that BMW's $70K "ultimate driving machine" is even in the conversation of being in the same "class" as a $30K Ford Crustang?

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 Post subject: Re: LMS Mustang (affordable) for F Street
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:11 pm 
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Les Davis wrote:
Am I the only one that finds it interesting that BMW's $70K "ultimate driving machine" is even in the conversation of being in the same "class" as a $30K Ford Crustang?


But, but, the Mustang isn't as 'refined' as a BMW. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: LMS Mustang (affordable) for F Street
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:14 pm 
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You're just jealous

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Les Davis wrote:
Am I the only one that finds it interesting that BMW's $70K "ultimate driving machine" is even in the conversation of being in the same "class" as a $30K Ford Crustang?


As a Mustang fan :thumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: LMS Mustang (affordable) for F Street
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:03 am 
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Tire Nerd
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DickRasmussen wrote:
Les Davis wrote:
Am I the only one that finds it interesting that BMW's $70K "ultimate driving machine" is even in the conversation of being in the same "class" as a $30K Ford Crustang?


As a Mustang fan :thumbsup:


Sort of like GT3s running against (and usually losing to) Vettes? :?

Speaking of which, there's nothing quite as "ultimate" as an almost worthless amount of front camber adjustment (-1.4 is max) versus -2.0 available on the Mustangs. :( Guess one decent aspect of this E90 M3 is that it's factory warranty runs out in 3 weeks (4 years), and it has never had a warranty claim. I think this is the only car I've owned that's been perfect since new (so far, 28k miles). I had it in Leith last week for scheduled maintenance (that's *free* too during warranty period), and it included: spark plugs, oil/filer, tranny fluid replace, diff fluid replace, brake fluid replace, cabin microfilters and wiper blades...so that part was a bit "ultimate" Les. :D

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 Post subject: Re: LMS Mustang (affordable) for F Street
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:32 pm 
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Chuck Branscomb wrote:
I had it in Leith last week for scheduled maintenance (that's *free* too during warranty period), and it included: spark plugs, oil/filer, tranny fluid replace, diff fluid replace, brake fluid replace, cabin microfilters and wiper blades...so that part was a bit "ultimate" Les. :D


No doubt, thats what $5-6K worth of service on that car? ;-) I have heard that these cars have been some of the most reliable in recent BMW history.

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 Post subject: Re: LMS Mustang (affordable) for F Street
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:00 pm 
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You're just jealous

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:14 pm
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Location: Raleigh, NC
Chuck Branscomb wrote:

Speaking of which, there's nothing quite as "ultimate" as an almost worthless amount of front camber adjustment (-1.4 is max) versus -2.0 available on the Mustangs. Guess one decent aspect of this E90 M3 is that it's factory warranty runs out in 3 weeks (4 years), and it has never had a warranty claim. I think this is the only car I've owned that's been perfect since new (so far, 28k miles). I had it in Leith last week for scheduled maintenance (that's *free* too during warranty period), and it included: spark plugs, oil/filer, tranny fluid replace, diff fluid replace, brake fluid replace, cabin microfilters and wiper blades...so that part was a bit "ultimate" Les :(


FYI only -1.7 camber on my Mustang after doing the strut filing.

Regarding service and reliability my 2012 Mustang has had zero problems in 20K miles and 3 years (bumper to bumper warranty was 36 months so fingers crossed). Maintenance is oil (8 qts) and filter changes between 7.5k and 10K miles. Looks like I better check the cabin air filter since it is "due" at 20K intervals. Next is engine air filter at 30K intervals. Coolant and plugs at 100K and "inspect" drive belts. Trans fluid at 150K and belts if not previously replaced. Diff fluid is "forever".

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