POINTS EVENT #4 Pics

JamesShort · **Posted:** Mon May 06, 2013 11:31 pm

More radios and a few sets of highly guarded headsets or hands-free sets are being investigated as we speak.

shawnwhipple · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:28 pm **Posts:** 603

My take, based what has been said, it seems like the problem was pretty much handled correctly all the way.

The worker noticed the problem, called it in, T&S informed an officer who addressed the problem, but he found a likely cause that wasn't the root cause. The car seemed ok to run so it was let back out on course, when it was discovered that the problem still existed so after that run the car was parked.

Honestly I would keep the grid worker out of job of parking cars with issues. When the event is running quickly, like it did Sunday the grid worker doesn't have time to deal with outside issues. I feel it should be handled by an officer who should contacted by T&S when the issues is noticed. Hopefully the officer can corral the car before it makes it back to the start line.

Carlton Whitehead · **Posted:** Tue May 07, 2013 12:50 pm

Carlton Whitehead wrote:

JamesShort wrote:

After one more run, under load (ie coming up the hill) it was clear it wasn't even the fuel filler door and it was coming straight from the exhaust

I'm not sure if it was taken before or after the driver's first attempt at a fix, but Mike got a very clear photo of gas blasting out of the gap around the fuel filler door. I'll post it here when I have a chance.

As promised:

JamesShort · **Posted:** Tue May 07, 2013 1:04 pm

Yep, on the run I let him go on after the gas cap was fixed, there was nothing coming out of the filler cap as shown above, but there was a mist of fuel coming from the exhaust only when going up the hill (engine loaded). That coupled with the film of gas all over the back bumper was enough to say there were even more problems so I told him he wasn't allowed to run any longer.

Carlton Whitehead · **Posted:** Tue May 07, 2013 1:10 pm

JamesShort wrote:

More radios and a few sets of highly guarded headsets or hands-free sets are being investigated as we speak.

<

>

This was really the biggest single point of failure in the whole debacle. On his first run, we received a radio call from a course worker that the car was leaking fuel. We trusted the course worker's report, and we tried to reach out to Start and Grid to get them to alert the driver before his second run, but perhaps due to radios not working, not being loud enough, not being close enough to the worker's ear (I don't know why, just speculating), the message didn't get through to either Grid or Start before he launched for his second run.

On his second run, we received another radio call that the car was leaking fuel, and if I remember correctly, a complaint that the car was even allowed to run again. I completely agree with this complaint. I'm not sure exactly what our (SCCA? THSCC?) rule is regarding this, but if it were up to me, a car spotted leaking fluids on the course should be red flagged immediately, run aborted, and parked for the remainder of the event. If there's a fluid leak, this is not something that you're going to fix between runs and confirm fixed before putting the safety of yourself, course workers, and even just the overall condition of the course at risk. I don't suspect any fluids aid grip, and some are explosive, so why should we give any leeway on this? The course is not an appropriate place to diagnose a fuel leak.

Before his third run, we managed to get James' attention in time for him to speak with the driver as he was pulling up to Start. We assumed James would pull the driver from the line and have him park the car. This ended up leading to a hold start call several minutes later when we realized James had let him run again. We hadn't staged him, so times got out of sync
</ :soap:

>

Rob Keehner · **Posted:** Tue May 07, 2013 1:11 pm

Don't people realize your car is faster without the extra 150 pounds of fuel in it. :soap:

If he'd run with only 3-5 gallons in the tank it wouldn't have spilled out. Something tells me the breather/overflow tank was removed, modified, or cracked.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Tue May 07, 2013 1:18 pm

Carlton, it's understood that communication would have been key to this situation. In the future grid will have a handsfree radio and I will walk around with a handsfree set as well. We only had 7 radios and there was not one to spare for myself and both of the VPs on site which is what we do but people are walking aways with radios and we only have enough for grid, T&S and worker stations. It will be addressed by the 6/1 event.

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Tue May 07, 2013 1:40 pm

Things like this are pretty rare, which is part of the reason there is a good conversation here. We can't plan for everything all of the time, but we can all learn something for the future.

My first thought was that the car was *missing* it's gas cap. I figured that the next time I saw it they had either found it or borrowed one. When James flagged the guy down and it seemed that the gas cap being on improperly was the actual problem, that got fixed and he went back out. I'd have let him run at that point (I think I might have loaned Daniel Camacho my gas cap once - to address this very issue). Aside from one extra run while we were getting communications in order, things worked pretty well.

We course workers should have red flagged the car immediately upon seeing the gas, and we didn't. That's probably the biggest breakdown.

DickRasmussen · **Posted:** Tue May 07, 2013 2:28 pm

JamesShort wrote:

Yep, on the run I let him go on after the gas cap was fixed, there was nothing coming out of the filler cap as shown above, but there was a mist of fuel coming from the exhaust only when going up the hill (engine loaded). That coupled with the film of gas all over the back bumper was enough to say there were even more problems so I told him he wasn't allowed to run any longer.

I'm not saying at all that the car "should" have been allowed to run! This is just for any future "what is happening and is it fixed" analysis at an event.

Question: Is it "for sure" that raw gas was coming from inside the tailpipe?

1) If our Mustangs are at all representative of this Cobra it is very possible that the gas was on the outside of the tailpipe since the filler area has in internal drain that exits adjacent to the right hand tailpipe. Also there are fender lip flanges down there that might have accumulated the previously dumped/draining fuel. Our 97 and 2001 would drain overflow from overfilling at a gas station in that location . . . and that was always a very small amount of fuel.

2) If the "fluid" was from inside the tailpipe and the engine/exhaust system was still fairly cool and/or had idled a lot there is a good chance it was actually water that had accumulated in the muffler . . . especially if the car didn't have a stock muffler with a working drain hole. Our Mustangs, and I assume many other modern cars, will "spit" water from the tailpipe long after the common water vapor fog is gone. Combine any actual internal water with residual draining gasoline and I certainly would have to assume gasoline until proven otherwise. However, it is hard to imagine significant large quantities of raw gas making it past the multiple catalytic converters to any exhaust pipe in a modern car that still runs. Stock Mustang V8 exhaust systems also have a crossover pipe up front that might send some of the gas to the other pipe even though it would require a right angle turn.

Again, just for future "after the run has been prevented/stopped" diagnosis to help the guy decide whether he can safely drive home.

Dick

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Tue May 07, 2013 5:06 pm

DickRasmussen wrote:

JamesShort wrote:

Yep, on the run I let him go on after the gas cap was fixed, there was nothing coming out of the filler cap as shown above, but there was a mist of fuel coming from the exhaust only when going up the hill (engine loaded). That coupled with the film of gas all over the back bumper was enough to say there were even more problems so I told him he wasn't allowed to run any longer.

I'm not saying at all that the car "should" have been allowed to run! This is just for any future "what is happening and is it fixed" analysis at an event.

Question: Is it "for sure" that raw gas was coming from inside the tailpipe?

1) If our Mustangs are at all representative of this Cobra it is very possible that the gas was on the outside of the tailpipe since the filler area has in internal drain that exits adjacent to the right hand tailpipe. Also there are fender lip flanges down there that might have accumulated the previously dumped/draining fuel. Our 97 and 2001 would drain overflow from overfilling at a gas station in that location . . . and that was always a very small amount of fuel.

2) If the "fluid" was from inside the tailpipe and the engine/exhaust system was still fairly cool and/or had idled a lot there is a good chance it was actually water that had accumulated in the muffler . . . especially if the car didn't have a stock muffler with a working drain hole. Our Mustangs, and I assume many other modern cars, will "spit" water from the tailpipe long after the common water vapor fog is gone. Combine any actual internal water with residual draining gasoline and I certainly would have to assume gasoline until proven otherwise. However, it is hard to imagine significant large quantities of raw gas making it past the multiple catalytic converters to any exhaust pipe in a modern car that still runs. Stock Mustang V8 exhaust systems also have a crossover pipe up front that might send some of the gas to the other pipe even though it would require a right angle turn.

Again, just for future "after the run has been prevented/stopped" diagnosis to help the guy decide whether he can safely drive home.

Dick

Pretty the picture supplied above most definitely shows gas exiting the car from the gas cap door area. I think I see some more coming off the bumper cover, also, which probably was dripping/seeping from the gas cap door

edit: Obviously I wasn't there so I can't say that's the only place gas was leaking. But from the looks of it the situation seems to be handled well, and now we have learned something useful and improved our process, particularly in re: grid/start communications.

RodneyWright · **Posted:** Tue May 07, 2013 5:18 pm

so I guess tech now includes a gas cap check, which wouldn't be a bad thing....

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Tue May 07, 2013 6:05 pm

I'm pretty sure this is a SN95 Mustang thing, I know the Grim Reaper LeChump team has been yanked off track several times due to gas leaks like this. Mark explained the problem to me but I only remember it being a cheap plastic valve in the tank not working properly and pressurizing the evap system.

Andrew Jonell · **Joined:** Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:43 pm **Posts:** 1350

RodneyWright wrote:

so I guess tech now includes a gas cap check, which wouldn't be a bad thing....

A gas cap check wouldn't have solved anything.

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Tue May 07, 2013 9:19 pm

Ryan Holton wrote:

I'm pretty sure this is a SN95 Mustang thing, I know the Grim Reaper LeChump team has been yanked off track several times due to gas leaks like this. Mark explained the problem to me but I only remember it being a cheap plastic valve in the tank not working properly and pressurizing the evap system.

So tech just needs check for SN95 Mustangs. That's easy.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Tue May 07, 2013 9:59 pm

Steven Carter wrote:

Pretty the picture supplied above most definitely shows gas exiting the car from the gas cap door area. I think I see some more coming off the bumper cover, also, which probably was dripping/seeping from the gas cap door

edit: Obviously I wasn't there so I can't say that's the only place gas was leaking. But from the looks of it the situation seems to be handled well, and now we have learned something useful and improved our process, particularly in re: grid/start communications.

That picture was not from his 5th run as there was zero fuel coming from his filler cap as I watched his run the whole way around the course. Under load while heading up the hill during the hard sweeping right turn (where the fuel door was in clear sight), there was a mist of fuel spewing from the rear the car, from what I assume was his exhaust. After rubbing streaks of fuel off his rear bumper, both on the driver and passenger side, it was clear that there was more than a leaky gas cap issue at hand and he was not allowed to run any further.

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