Street Tire Class 2013

Keith Quistorff · **Posted:** Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:22 pm

JamesShort wrote:

The solution is that we'd create RTSS, RTAS, RTBS....RTSSP, RTASP, RTBSP etc as classes that have a premodified pax associated with them. Then you can run those classes in whatever category (NOV, TIR, X) and we'd be fine.

If I'm understanding correctly, I see where pre-adjusted RT* PAX Indeces would work for NOV and X class, but not for TIR class (assuming we will use the 2% PAX discount on TIR class) as that would result in "double dipping" by taking the 2% discount twice - once for RT* adjustment, then again for TIR adjustment. Am I misunderstanding?

JamesShort · **Posted:** Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:52 pm

Keith Quistorff wrote:

JamesShort wrote:

The solution is that we'd create RTSS, RTAS, RTBS....RTSSP, RTASP, RTBSP etc as classes that have a premodified pax associated with them. Then you can run those classes in whatever category (NOV, TIR, X) and we'd be fine.

If I'm understanding correctly, I see where pre-adjusted RT* PAX Indeces would work for NOV and X class, but not for TIR class (assuming we will use the 2% PAX discount on TIR class) as that would result in "double dipping" by taking the 2% discount twice - once for RT* adjustment, then again for TIR adjustment. Am I misunderstanding?

Yes, TIR would have no inherent adjustment. It will merely be a 'category' where your 'class' is converted to the RTAS RTBSP RTAM etc etc. So it will hopefully be hidden from the registration process.

Zach Hill · **Posted:** Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:00 pm

I think if we ran the RT* classes separate as SCCA does the classes would become too small. Someone mentioned that TIR class might be "too big;" I wasn't aware a class could be too big? Do others feel the same way? IMO, bigger classes = more competition = more satisfying when you have a good result = pushes you harder.

A simple and I think fair approach would be to continue to run TIR class as we have been, and just give them a pax adjustment similar to what RT* classes get. Running TIR has always been a pax disadvantage because the indexes were calculated based on R comps, which aren't allowed.

So I suppose the big question is: How do people (especially those running in the class) feel about one large (11-19 was the range of entrants for 2012) class or multiple smaller classes?

BriceJohnson · **Joined:** Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:33 am **Posts:** 2230

I agree, just do a big TIR class with the RT adjustment. Big classes are a good thing as long as the playing field is level, which I believe it is.

Keith Quistorff · **Posted:** Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:17 pm

I also agree - big classes are a good thing - makes for more competition, camaraderie, etc. The only downside I see is if a class gets bigger at the expense of others getting smaller.

Personally, I view any autocross as having one huge class with all the competitors in it - the only result I care about is the overall PAX result.

Jordan Normark · **Posted:** Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:26 pm

Zach Hill wrote:

I think if we ran the RT* classes separate as SCCA does the classes would become too small. Someone mentioned that TIR class might be "too big;" I wasn't aware a class could be too big? Do others feel the same way? IMO, bigger classes = more competition = more satisfying when you have a good result = pushes you harder.

A simple and I think fair approach would be to continue to run TIR class as we have been, and just give them a pax adjustment similar to what RT* classes get. Running TIR has always been a pax disadvantage because the indexes were calculated based on R comps, which aren't allowed.

So I suppose the big question is: How do people (especially those running in the class) feel about one large (11-19 was the range of entrants for 2012) class or multiple smaller classes?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I agree. Larger, competitive classes are alot more fun to me. With only a handfull of entrants in SSM and a wide range of car prep, I end up using the overall results to figure out how I did. I am sure others do this too, but there is nothing like getting beat in your class to make you push harder.

Les Davis · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:04 pm **Posts:** 2059

Keith Quistorff wrote:

Ryan Holton wrote:

Ohhh, there is not much better than the first few runs on fresh tires. Its almost like you feel you can tell physics to piss off. Its paying the tire bills that's the problem.

Amen, brother! Last new set of A6's I purchased by choice lasted 21 autocross runs, and I didn't use them for anything else. At $1200/set, or $57 per run, that's too rich for my blood. Thankfully, at least Hoosier was gracious in replacing them for a very reduced price.

(And no, they weren't underinflated, etc. - they were on a McStrut car, however, but with a massive front sway bar and rotated front to rear every event - wore out on the outside edge, but the wear was fairly even across the surface.)

I doubt you would have nearly as much trouble with that in the RX-8. With my last two autocross cars (Miata, Corvette) my r-comps last longer than I want them too especially the V710s, they are heat cycled to death and hard before they ever cord. Thanks to the "awesome" weather we have had this season, my accident in middle of the year, and a car that prefers to not be driven, my current 18 month old 12 event V710s still look nearly brand new, yeah!

Arthur McDonald · **Joined:** Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:54 am **Posts:** 2052

JamesShort wrote:

car nerds are a waning demographic and more financially conservative automobile enthusiasts are going to become the norm.

Uh-oh. Am I part of (another) waning demographic, or a financially conservative automobile enthusiast?

I've enjoyed being back in stock class the last several years. I only wish the people who lured me back into FS were still in FS. :stick:

So here's my idea: Do away with TIR class. Run cars in their normal classes per the SCCA car classifications, and for the cars running on street/road tires, just apply the .980 road tire modifier. The ST* classes would be exceptions. I guess this also means a change to AXWare, but if we could do it, things would be a lot simpler.

I've been tempted the last couple of years to kick the Hoosier habit. #1 I hate changing tires in the cold. #2 I hate changing tires in the heat. #3 I hate the way my back hurts when I'm changing tires. #4 I hate changing tires while I'd rather be walking the course and hanging around with my friends. #5 But I love the grip.

#5 is pretty compelling. And since a competitive set of "road" tires costs 80-85% as much as Hoosier A6s, I might just put up with #1, #2, #3 and #4 another year. Even if nobody wants to play with me.

BTW -- Brice, did you complete that spreadsheet?

Matt McGrain · **Posted:** Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:38 pm

I agree with Zach and Keith. Just adjust the TIR Class using the pax reducer and TIR will still be a hoot and you know folks will still bring their A-game running on Dunlops and RS-3's. Ryan makes a good point too; it's not just sort of a Novice II class anymore with more competition. Plus, at the end of the day, pax and raw times are always a good indicator of how you drove that day.

There's really nothing we can do about the stock classes diminishing as they're based on a race rubber as we all know and only a dozen THSCC regulars are still willing to lug extra wheels and do the swapping on site. I agree though, Hoosiers are sort of too rich for my blood too. I didn't notice the Civic sedan last year being any faster on A6's versus V710's so I'm running with Kumhos to make them last most of a season hopefully as the grip doesn't fall off that badly like the purple stuff.

Part of the reason folks are sticking with the fast ST tires is that they are so much better than they were 6-7 years ago. I'm still shocked having only run one set of Star Specs, just how grippy they are compared to the old 615 Azenis.

Cash Davidson · **Posted:** Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:06 pm

I guess I agree most with Art - or maybe I just hate Pax - or maybe I just miss the old days when Stock classes were full and it felt like you were competing against similar cars. Like Matt said, back then there was such a big difference between R-comps and everything else, most people ran R-comps.

I would just add to the discussion, that if we change something it should be for a compelling reason. Let's not kid ourselves that any change in classes will attract more drivers. History has consistently shown that class changes, just shuffle the field. This years numbers at SCCA regionals & nationals saw pretty respectable numbers in the new RT* classes along with smaller numbers in stock classes. Overall, participation was the same or slightly less (from what I've read on SCCA boards).

As for me, I will likely use AutoX to test and tune the Mazda6 in hopes of running all of our track events (and maybe more). If time permits, I'll bring out the Bullitt and run in TIR or RTR or FS or whatever class will have me - I just wanna run and have fun.

shawnwhipple · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:28 pm **Posts:** 603

Yeah I agree with James in that I have "faith" that the SCCA will one day make stock class Road tires only. I think the RT classes are their way of testing the waters to see what folks will think of it.

Cash I remember the old days when you went to an event and it seemed like everyone was running R-comps. The pits were literally full of folks changing tires. These days, there is maybe 5 or 6 people in stock class changing tires.

I won't get upset if anyone disagrees with me on my crazy idea. It's just an idea. Whatever the officers decide I'll still show up and have a ton of fun. My main thought was that since a lot of folks are running TIR that they might like a way to run in their class and get out of a PAX class.

Steven Spampinato · **Posted:** Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:17 pm

Making Stock Classes road tire only is fine, it is a great idea. However, a larger class with other stock classes makes a great competition!
I had a blast this year pushing my car and doing the best I could against "faster cars". A few times I beat others by RAW and more than a few by PAX. Reguardless, I had more fun than I ever had before. Art's idea of using the modifier can work.

With street tires getting better by the day, I am getting egar to see the future. I enjoy this class, it gets us back to our roots.
Budget friendly racing....before we has autocross slicks!

JamesShort · **Posted:** Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:29 pm

I change tires in ST* :-)

Andrew Jonell · **Joined:** Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:43 pm **Posts:** 1350

People have been saying that the street tires have definitely changed in the past 6-7 years, but hasn't the A6 been the same compound for much longer than that?

Jordan Normark · **Posted:** Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:27 am

I think most of the R-comps are the same with the exception of Kumho V-700's which are not available anymore, and the NT-01 which no one else seems to run besides me. The azenis were the hot street tire when I got out in 2003, and as Matt said, they don't even compare to today's street tires. This is about the time I noticed the trend away from R-comps gaining "traction". I had an old set of RS-2's from 2006 when I started back at the end of last year. They were competitive when they were new, and still had a fair amount of grip, but no where near enough to keep up with RS-3's or Star Specs. On a 50 second course, we used to say there was a 2 second difference between good street tires (Azenis) and V-700's which were about a second off Hoosier's. Now, I would wager the difference between a good street tire (RS-3 or Star Specs) and Hoosier's is closer to the 1.5 to 1 second range.

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