Nationals Results from Thursday - Tarheelers in the Trophies

JohnByers · **Posted:** Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:17 pm

Great job everyone! Outstanding :mrgreen:

JamesShort · **Posted:** Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:56 pm

Man CSP was awfully slow. Did they run in rain?

JohnByers · **Posted:** Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:56 pm

I believe so, yes. Or drying conditions..

Eric Peterson · **Joined:** Mon Sep 01, 2003 10:24 am **Posts:** 494

Yes, CSP ran in the wet on Day #1, but on Day #2 Tim Aro was even faster (I believe) than the very fast FP class. Plus, he was the fastest pax for all of the Heat 1 drivers and got to run in the Gumout Challenge where he finished second of the 10 fastest pax drivers from Tues/Wed.

Bernie Baake · **Posted:** Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:51 am

OH I forgot Feinburg also won the Gumout Shootout .

Matt McGrain · **Posted:** Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:58 am

Wow to go everyone!! It looks like the Miniature Coupe did some serious cleaning up - nice! :thumbsup:

Jennifer, nice day two driving especially as it looks like you kept cranking down the times consistently both days with only one cone.

Safe travels everyone and I can't wait to join y'all next year.

RobLupella · **Posted:** Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:46 am

Congratulations to everyone. Great job. :toast:

I really need to win the lottery

Keith Vail · **Posted:** Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:13 pm

Wow what a week. I am finally home just in time to unpack and repack for my trip to Hong Kong this week. Here is a quick download. This was my third trip to Nationals but my first in my own vehicle. I am pretty happy with my performance. I felt that I could be in contention for a top 5 finish if I drove my best. I made a few mistakes and finished in 6th out of 34 drivers bringing home my first Nats trophy!

I had nothing for the top 3 but that is ok. I had a great time with the exception of getting roasted in the 95+ degree heat each day. It was great to see Jennifer come out and give it a go. She drove great and took everything that was thrown at her. Hopefully we will see her out at some more National events in 2012.

Huge congrats to Jim for finally getting the big win! Gwen and David looked excellent out there as well and Alyssa and I had a blast hanging out with Team Grab and Go all week. I wish I could have watched Eric run in SS but there was way too much going on for me to catch everything unfortunately.

One final thought is that I think I need to count 5 minute epoxy as my new tool of choice as it saved my butt this week after my fuel tank cracked on Thursday morning and I needed a fast fix that would keep fuel from spilling out onto me as I tried to run the kart. :lol:

It held for three runs before falling off, I then redid the fix for Friday and it held for my final three runs. I guess I need a new fuel tank before the kart gets run again.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:02 am

Anyone else notice that STS was faster, or as fast as STR? Who says a 1.6L NA miata with a crappy viscous coupling diff can't beat the higher powered, fancy LSD crowd

.

Imagine if Andrew Canak had a torsen or clutch based LSD in his STS car and ran STR

. Also somewhat validates that an NB could stir things up in STR

. I hope Darin DiSimo hasn't given up on his NB for STR.

Eric Peterson · **Joined:** Mon Sep 01, 2003 10:24 am **Posts:** 494

i talked to Darren and he thinks his 1999 is out matched by the s2ks, especially on the big courses at Lincoln. Also keep in mind that course conditions can change a great deal between heats so it is hard to make comparisons unless classes run in the same heat/course.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:20 am

Eric Peterson wrote:

i talked to Darren and he thinks his 1999 is out matched by the s2ks, especially on the big courses at Lincoln. Also keep in mind that course conditions can change a great deal between heats so it is hard to make comparisons unless classes run in the same heat/course.

Good point, STR was Heat1 and STS was heat 2 on Th/Fri on the same course so I'd say other than track temp, they should have had similar track conditions? And looking at STR it wasn't like they all were hitting their best scratch times on the 3rd run either (ie surface temp wasn't terribly cold for heat 1 folks). If anything STS might have had more opr than STR? I don't know. Just crazy that a 90rwhp 1.6L Miata on 195s is as fast or faster than 200whp S2000s with 255s on them and good diffs.

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:02 am

JamesShort wrote:

Anyone else notice that STS was faster, or as fast as STR? Who says a 1.6L NA miata with a crappy viscous coupling diff can't beat the higher powered, fancy LSD crowd

.

Imagine if Andrew Canak had a torsen or clutch based LSD in his STS car and ran STR

. Also somewhat validates that an NB could stir things up in STR

. I hope Darin DiSimo hasn't given up on his NB for STR.

rRespectfully, I disagree and don't think that's entirely true. Sure, the fastest STS was faster than top STR finisher, but that may be because Mr Canak is a better driver. After all, 4 of the top 8 finishers in STS were CRXs, so it being all about STS Miata may be a premature conclusion.

Look at the top 10 range as well. STS ranges from 135.4- 138.3, while STR ranges from 135.8-136.9; tighter range and on average, faster. Back-of-the-napkin evaluation, to me, makes it seem like STR is still faster than STS over a range of drivers. Not by much, which may justify the 0.823 (STS) vs 0.836 (STR) PAX rating. It will be interesting to see if that gap narrows next year.

In addition, notice the MX5 distribution in STR vs S2k. If I count correctly, half the MX5s are in the bottom half of the finishers (16 of the bottom 32) 13 in the top 32 and have only 4 in the top 16. On the other hand, S2000s are 6 of the top 7, 16 of the top 32 and 13 of the bottom 32...overall, a much more favorable distribution over a wider range of driver ability.

Note: BS is still faster than STR, so the "spend more money to go slower" argument against STR has not been conclusively defeated.

Of course, next year is an entirely different story, and course designers may come up with something that favors the MX5. For now, though, the evidence doesn't seem to support the 1999 MX5, or even the NC MX5 as being "the" car to have in STR.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:21 am

Steven Carter wrote:

rRespectfully, I disagree and don't think that's entirely true. Sure, the fastest STS was faster than top STR finisher, but that may be because Mr Canak is a better driver. After all, 4 of the top 8 finishers in STS were CRXs, so it being all about STS Miata may be a premature conclusion.

My point was that the fastest STS car was a 1.6L miata and was faster than a CR S2000, which undoubtedly is true unless there are protests I don't know about.

In the miata.net community it seems there is a lot of 'talk' that the NB couldn't possibly compete in STR (some opinions are so strong that they seem to imply that hypothetical perfect driving, in a hypothetically perfectly prepped NB would still yield the NB slower than the NC/S2000). The opinions that an NA (whether it be 1.6L or 1.8L) with 225s on 9" wheels with a good aftermarket LSD couldn't come close running with the NC/S2000.

And then an STS car (1.6L with viscous diff, 195 toyos on 15x7.5s) goes and is faster than STR (in a very healthy crowd of 60+ drivers) on courses that arguably might favor more powerful cars. By the transitive property of autocross cars, that tells me that an NB probably could so the same thing and hence my comment regarding the NB

.

There is a 1.3% difference in pax between STS and STR which is pretty major so maybe, due its youth, STR is still developing and therefore even the winner of STR at the championship is 'far' from the true potential of the class. Granted past NT/PS events seem to show that STR and STS are similarly quick, but they might have been on slower courses.

Assuming the winner of STS was driving at hypothetical perfect PAX pace, then a perfect STR car with perfect driving should have been running 133.3. 2s off pace is a lot.

Matt McGrain · **Posted:** Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:21 pm

Steven Carter wrote:

Sure, the fastest STS was faster than top STR finisher, but that may be because Mr Canak is a better driver. After all, 4 of the top 8 finishers in STS were CRXs, so it being all about STS Miata may be a premature conclusion.

This could very well also be true in the GS crowd. Just to point out the first two HS cars were quicker than GS. According to the '11 Pax, on a 60 second course GS, needs to be 1.3+ seconds quicker. Not gonna happen.

For those that know, did all the 'big guns' just not show up this year in GS? I know there's a fellow that won HS that absolutely crushed it, but still.

I know the PAX/RTP index is somewhat of a predictor of what the car will or should be doing, but I don't think Genesis is living up to the hype this year.

So is it too early to start recruiting first time Tarheelers for the first National Tour event in March? It's such a blast! :thumbsup:

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:35 pm

JamesShort wrote:

My point was that the fastest STS car was a 1.6L miata and was faster than a CR S2000, which undoubtedly is true unless there are protests I don't know about.

In the miata.net community it seems there is a lot of 'talk' that the NB couldn't possibly compete in STR (some opinions are so strong that they seem to imply that hypothetical perfect driving, in a hypothetically perfectly prepped NB would still yield the NB slower than the NC/S2000). The opinions that an NA (whether it be 1.6L or 1.8L) with 225s on 9" wheels with a good aftermarket LSD couldn't come close running with the NC/S2000.

And then an STS car (1.6L with viscous diff, 195 toyos on 15x7.5s) goes and is faster than STR (in a very healthy crowd of 60+ drivers) on courses that arguably might favor more powerful cars. By the transitive property of autocross cars, that tells me that an NB probably could so the same thing and hence my comment regarding the NB

.

There is a 1.3% difference in pax between STS and STR which is pretty major so maybe, due its youth, STR is still developing and therefore even the winner of STR at the championship is 'far' from the true potential of the class. Granted past NT/PS events seem to show that STR and STS are similarly quick, but they might have been on slower courses.

Assuming the winner of STS was driving at hypothetical perfect PAX pace, then a perfect STR car with perfect driving should have been running 133.3. 2s off pace is a lot.

PAX is not based on hypothetical perfect performance, at least as I understand it. It is an accumulation of data from multiple self-selected drivers (who assume they are the best and therefore travel and perform on a national circuit. This is a somewhat flawed sampling process, as some National drivers are not very good, and many local drivers could do very well if they chose to go National. But, it's the best tool available at this point.) across multiple venues in multiple weather scenarios. PAX is then derived from statistical analysis of those results, however flawed that empirical evidence may be. So, just like a golfer with an 18 handicap can on occasion break 80, so too an STS car on occasion can be faster than an STR-mobile. However, the preponderance of data, as well as the general trend, supports STR being faster than STS. For this year's Nationals, the average time for STS was 142.671, median was 140.8. For STR, the mean was 139.607 and median 139.053.

I would not build an STR Miata based on your assumptions about the championship-winning STS and this year's finals results. I would also not rush out and buy a CR for STR. But, I bet Charlie will still sell you his NB :wink:

edit: HOWEVER, I think there is a strong $/fun "value" argument that can be made which supports building an STS car over an STR.

In re: "perfect PAX pace." As you state earlier, STR is still in development, so one cannot say if 2 seconds is a lot to overcome as the theoretical "perfect prep" STR car has not yet been achieved.

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