interest in adding a mid level ST class

RodneyWright · **Posted:** Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:01 pm

I posted this to the NCR SCCA forum, but wanted to run by everyone here.

My question is, has there been any thought to adding a mid level STn class to support cars like the newer S197 mustang without having to go from F-stock to STX? I know in my former autox car, a '96 328 BMW, I could go from D-stock, to ST, to STU and then STX. Lot of money to throw into a STX car.

I wanted to see if there was any interest in trying to adopt a midlevel STn class for V8s.

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:59 pm

I'm confused.

How is what you are proposing any different than just running STX? Or are you trying to avoid Civics, RX8's and 3 series BMW's?

Scott

JamesShort · **Posted:** Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:32 pm

STU is higher than STX.

Damn, STR is already a class, but it could have been Street Touring Redneck for the Mustangs

.

Anyway, the only reason you could go to ST with your 328 is because it had and open diff. If it had an LSD, you'd have to go straight for STX. You could run a 328 (or a Stang GT for that matter) in STU, but the only thing you'd get is more tire and wide wheels and still be way down on power to weigh ratios to the STI/EVOs.

I mean really, no ST* class is that much more expensive to prep for than any other other than the cost of tires (as you go wider). Or if you take an ST car and add an aftermarket LSD. Regardless, until the rules are changed, you are just as likely to get beat by a 21 year old civic regardless of if you run ST, STX, or STU

.

RodneyWright · **Posted:** Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:34 pm

scottjohnson wrote:

I'm confused.

How is what you are proposing any different than just running STX? Or are you trying to avoid Civics, RX8's and 3 series BMW's?

Scott

Not trying to avoid anyone, just looking from a money/mods standpoint. Comparing ST vs STX, STX allows more exhaust mods and brake mods. I was looking for some mid point for FS stock cars to run ST but not a full blown STX experience. I'd like to do just a tune and springs as allowed in ST for DS but not go down the whole money burn path as in STX.

Just throwing this out for debate.

RodneyWright · **Posted:** Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:40 pm

JamesShort wrote:

Regardless, until the rules are changed, you are just as likely to get beat by a 21 year old civic regardless of if you run ST, STX, or STU

.

oh, that's cold, but probably true.

You know, this brings to mind that I should probably read up on this crap before I post. Good point James that STU > STX. Maybe I just shouldn't post anymore :oops:

Dustin Fredrickson · **Posted:** Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:41 pm

RodneyWright wrote:

scottjohnson wrote:

I'm confused.

How is what you are proposing any different than just running STX? Or are you trying to avoid Civics, RX8's and 3 series BMW's?

Scott

Not trying to avoid anyone, just looking from a money/mods standpoint. Comparing ST vs STX, STX allows more exhaust mods and brake mods. I was looking for some mid point for FS stock cars to run ST but not a full blown STX experience. I'd like to do just a tune and springs as allowed in ST for DS but not go down the whole money burn path as in STX.

Just throwing this out for debate.

This is for local fun? Then mod how you want with an eye to the rules and have fun with it. My M3 is FAAAAAAR from an STU car, but is a blast to run and can be competitive locally, so I'm good with it. Yes, I get beat by nationals prepped STanything's driven by good drivers, but I'm ok with that too. I'd bet you could do the stuff you want to do and still be well in the trophies in STX next year.

IMO, we have enough classes to worry about. But if we're adding classes, I want STR-lite for my NB Miata!

Keith Vail · **Posted:** Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:41 pm

Rodney you have to go directly to STX since you Mustang has a limited slip I am assuming since I drove it back in May and it sure felt like it did. Besides the fact that 4.6 liters is way over the displacement limit for ST. Yes STX allows more to be done than ST but not that much more and your car would be competitive locally except against the Cline BMW with just some stiffer springs and 17x9's with the same tires you are running now. There is no reason to try and create a new class.

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:44 pm

RodneyWright wrote:

scottjohnson wrote:

I'm confused.

How is what you are proposing any different than just running STX? Or are you trying to avoid Civics, RX8's and 3 series BMW's?

Scott

Not trying to avoid anyone, just looking from a money/mods standpoint. Comparing ST vs STX, STX allows more exhaust mods and brake mods. I was looking for some mid point for FS stock cars to run ST but not a full blown STX experience. I'd like to do just a tune and springs as allowed in ST for DS but not go down the whole money burn path as in STX.

Just throwing this out for debate.

edited for redundant commentary....took too long to clean off my keyboard after the Street Touring Redneck comment :oops:

I don't think ST* is intended as a "progression" of car development, but is based loosely on form (sports car vs non-sports car based) and relative engine displacement. You couldn't run your Mustang in ST even if you wanted to because of the 3.1liter limit.

Why not just do the mods you want and run it that way? Don't think your car has to be built to the hilt to be competitive...even if the spec Civics and Mr Cline's STX awesomemobile make one feel that way.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:45 pm

Keith Vail wrote:

Rodney you have to go directly to STX since you Mustang has a limited slip I am assuming since I drove it back in May and it sure felt like it did. Besides the fact that 4.6 liters is way over the displacement limit for ST. Yes STX allows more to be done than ST but not that much more and your car would be competitive locally except against the Cline BMW with just some stiffer springs and 17x9's with the same tires you are running now. There is no reason to try and create a new class.

What can you do in STX that you can't do in ST (not referring to Mustang specifically) other than LSD, wider tires, and wider wheels? I thought all the IHE and suspension mods were the same for all ST* classes.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:53 pm

Dustin Fredrickson wrote:

IMO, we have enough classes to worry about. But if we're adding classes, I want STR-lite for my NB Miata!

No disrespect for Zach, but you have in times past, beat him (the STR NCAC champ in a cheater S2000) pretty handily in your terribly prepped STR car

(what CS car with seats and street tires

).

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:51 am

RodneyWright wrote:

just looking from a money/mods standpoint. Comparing ST vs STX, STX allows

Lets do that

RodneyWright wrote:

more exhaust mods

I don't understand why this is a problem, you have one of the sweetest sounding motors on the planet with TONS of off the shelf solutions. You still have to keep a cat, you can eliminate multiple cats with just one. You dont HAVE to do that though. You make tons of power as is.

RodneyWright wrote:

and brake mods.

Just because you can doesn't mean you have to and probably don't need too.

RodneyWright wrote:

I was looking for some mid point for FS stock cars to run ST but not a full blown STX experience. I'd like to do just a tune and springs as allowed in ST for DS but not go down the whole money burn path as in STX.

Just throwing this out for debate.

I just don't see that big a jump from a ST style build vs STX. You don't need a brake kit, already have an LSD and already make gobs of power so a maxed out exhaust isn't that necessary. Futhermore I hope they eliminate some of the STX differences to the rest of ST* in the future re-alignment.

Keith Vail · **Posted:** Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:59 am

JamesShort wrote:

What can you do in STX that you can't do in ST (not referring to Mustang specifically) other than LSD, wider tires, and wider wheels? I thought all the IHE and suspension mods were the same for all ST* classes.

You can do a modify the brakes for lighter weight or installing big brake kits and the exhaust rules in STX are looser than those in ST. Like on the WRX you can remove the 3 OE cats and replace them with just one high flow unit where in ST/STS/STR you need to have the same number of cats as stock. I think there might be a few more things but I would need to sit and think on it.

Ryan Holton · **Posted:** Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:27 am

Keith Vail wrote:

JamesShort wrote:

What can you do in STX that you can't do in ST (not referring to Mustang specifically) other than LSD, wider tires, and wider wheels? I thought all the IHE and suspension mods were the same for all ST* classes.

You can do a modify the brakes for lighter weight or installing big brake kits and the exhaust rules in STX are looser than those in ST. Like on the WRX you can remove the 3 OE cats and replace them with just one high flow unit where in ST/STS/STR you need to have the same number of cats as stock. I think there might be a few more things but I would need to sit and think on it.

Wider wheels for STX vs ST/STS but that's about it.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:59 am

Ryan Holton wrote:

Keith Vail wrote:

JamesShort wrote:

What can you do in STX that you can't do in ST (not referring to Mustang specifically) other than LSD, wider tires, and wider wheels? I thought all the IHE and suspension mods were the same for all ST* classes.

You can do a modify the brakes for lighter weight or installing big brake kits and the exhaust rules in STX are looser than those in ST. Like on the WRX you can remove the 3 OE cats and replace them with just one high flow unit where in ST/STS/STR you need to have the same number of cats as stock. I think there might be a few more things but I would need to sit and think on it.

Wider wheels for STX vs ST/STS but that's about it.

I just looked through the 2010 rules. Keith is right.

Going from ST to STX allows:

LSD
Wider wheels
Wider tires
Replace N cats with 1 aftermarket high flow
Brake rotors that are equal to or greater in diameter than stock

Ok so this sucks:

Quote:

STX, STU, STR – Only standard (as defi ned in Section 12.4) limited
slip differentials (LSD) are allowed on AWD vehicles. For AWD
vehicles that did not come with any type of limited slip differential
(including center differential or transfer case), a single aftermarket
LSD may be added. 2WD vehicles may use any LSD unit.

So this is to say that the viscous coupling in my center diff (front and rear open) means that I can't put a aftermarket LSD into my front or rear diff if I wanted to do STU? Or does a viscous coupling not count as a LSD (it doesn't in my book

).

Keith Vail · **Posted:** Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:16 am

JamesShort wrote:

So this is to say that the viscous coupling in my center diff (front and rear open) means that I can't put a aftermarket LSD into my front or rear diff if I wanted to do STU? Or does a viscous coupling not count as a LSD (it doesn't in my book

).

Unfortunately the standard WRX gets screwed in ST trim as it can't add any mechanical diffs to even up the playing field with the STi.

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interest in adding a mid level ST class

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