TIR Class Exclusion List

Tom Hoppe · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:16 am **Posts:** 387

Quote:

Actually, let's sweeten the pot a bit, and do the standard bet I do with my co-driver? $5 a tenth, rounding up anything .05 or over? This would all be based on PAX values. I certainly don't mind taking your money, or anyone else who wants in.

I'm so in!

-Tom

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:16 pm

All I can say is, GIDDY UP! - AB

Diane Hall · **Posted:** Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:19 pm

That's one way to make PRO class pay.

Tom Hoppe · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:16 am **Posts:** 387

You know, I was thinking about that.

Do any of you other pansies want to put some cash on PAX?

Mr. Jim, Mr. Allen? Put your $$ where your keyboard is :lol:

-Tom

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:48 pm

jimpastorius wrote:

I don't need to run PRO. The final PAX results will speak loud and clear :lol:

Gee, Mr PAX sucks, I didn't think weshould publish those anymore?

I do trophies, I won't say who got top pax. If you want to know how you paxed at the event, you better run pro, novice or tire class!

Scott

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:52 pm

scottjohnson wrote:

jimpastorius wrote:

I don't need to run PRO. The final PAX results will speak loud and clear :lol:

Gee, Mr PAX sucks, I didn't think weshould publish those anymore?

I do trophies, I won't say who got top pax. If you want to know how you paxed at the event, you better run pro, novice or tire class!

Scott

Are you on crack? I never said I did not like PAX. I do agree with Kevin's comments on the PRO class. And the PRO class is nowhere near the fun of the Open. I will work with ES drivers up until they are close to beating me

MikeWhitney · **Joined:** Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15 pm **Posts:** 4724

I haven't read all the posts, but I thought I could shed some light on why ST* classes aren't in NOV, since I think I helped push the rule through.

NOV is an "assumed" street tire class. Sure, every once in a while someone shows up co-driving a car with R-comps, but it's pretty rare actually.

When STS was available in NOV, everyone with a legal car was running it. STS was dominating NOV since 2/3 of the stock class cars could run there at an advantage. The STS pax wasn't working where nearly everyone runs on street tires.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's just a matter of minimizing badness. No good solution, except perhaps banning r-comps from NOV. But it's such a minor problem, who cares?

For the record, I do *not* believe that ST* eligible cars should be banned from TIR. I have my own reasons, which may or may not be as valid as anyone else's counterargument. But I still wish TIR would go away

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:39 pm

jimpastorius wrote:

Are you on crack? I never said I did not like PAX. I do agree with Kevin's comments on the PRO class. And the PRO class is nowhere near the fun of the Open. I will work with ES drivers up until they are close to beating me

Sorry, I must have misunderstood when you wrote:

Quote:

Eliminate all PAX classes. Award the top 3 novices a trophy and they are no longer eligible for a novice trophy...

Eliminate any awards given for PAX performance. We would still publish the PAX results, only for reference.

And this one:

Quote:

I think I will order a PAX Sucks sticker for the car

But you also wrote:

Quote:

I just thought it was cool ES PAX went up and most of the others stayed the same.

So maybe I should be confused.

Scott

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:38 pm

You have way too much time on your hands

Like I said, PAX is a great reference. It is a lousy way to award victories. If you want to award victories, PAX should be part of the equation. A class win, your fastest raw time and your best pax time is far more representative of performace.

The only PAX that counts is the ProSolo PAX. And that is its own beast. Any other PAX is a cool reference point.

If PAX was the end all be all of performance judgement, don't you think that the SCCA would have a PAX award? Did you see the PAX results for the San Bernadino Tour (the first Tour without rain)? Four out of the top 10 were STS cars. Good thing Paul Brown got the ES up there in the top 10...well maybe not a good thing.

To clarify, PAX is cool for bench racing.

Dale Schendel · **Posted:** Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:16 am

I just drive the car but Beings we have developed such a long thread about rules, I think it sucks just a bit that if all I do is add a rear sway bar my slow @ss car would be bumped from stock to street prepared even if I kept the none gripping @ss tires on it especially when it comes off a car in the junk yard and is considered stock for that year model but not on my year model. Or am I just not getting something here(happens alot) but I can add Azenies and still stay in the same class but the tires are more of an advantage than a sway bar.

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:27 am

Dale Schendel wrote:

I just drive the car but Beings we have developed such a long thread about rules, I think it sucks just a bit that if all I do is add a rear sway bar my slow @ss car would be bumped from stock to street prepared even if I kept the none gripping @ss tires on it especially when it comes off a car in the junk yard and is considered stock for that year model but not on my year model. Or am I just not getting something here(happens alot) but I can add Azenies and still stay in the same class but the tires are more of an advantage than a sway bar.

But you can add a front sway bar, something that corolla will benefit from a lot more than a rear bar! Less body roll, so more grip (front and rear), the inside rear tire stays planted better, so you can use more power on corner exit, etc.

We need to measure those struts, I suspect we can find plenty f stock legal replacements, just labled for other cars.

The '83 should use inserts just like my celica or an AE86 corolla of similar vintage, all you have to do is measure and have Koni (or others) skim tha catalog for comparable replacements.

Scott

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:45 am

jimpastorius wrote:

Did you see the PAX results for the San Bernadino Tour (the first Tour without rain)? Four out of the top 10 were STS cars. Good thing Paul Brown got the ES up there in the top 10...well maybe not a good thing.

To clarify, PAX is cool for bench racing.

Actually, Ft. Myers was the first Tour without rain, and with some certainty, I can say that STS did not dominate that Tour, especially when HS was running better times than STS. - AB

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:51 am

Aaron Buckley wrote:

jimpastorius wrote:

Did you see the PAX results for the San Bernadino Tour (the first Tour without rain)? Four out of the top 10 were STS cars. Good thing Paul Brown got the ES up there in the top 10...well maybe not a good thing.

To clarify, PAX is cool for bench racing.

Actually, Ft. Myers was the first Tour without rain, and with some certainty, I can say that STS did not dominate that Tour, especially when HS was running better times than STS. - AB

My feeling on Ft. Myers is that it is never a good barometer of the competition. Expecially this year with the Pro and Tour split.

We will have a better idea in DC and then the mid-west. Or there are some real strong STS cars on the west coast.

Aaron Buckley · **Posted:** Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:58 am

jimpastorius wrote:

My feeling on Ft. Myers is that it is never a good barometer of the competition. Expecially this year with the Pro and Tour split.

We will have a better idea in DC and then the mid-west. Or there are some real strong STS cars on the west coast.

The West has some really strong STS cars, but so does the East. It's one of the few classes that actually have good parity on both coasts. Even the Mid-West has some tough STS cars. No surprise considering STS has constituted over 13% of every National event this year.

I don't think the Tour/Pro split limited too much of the competition. Yes, certain classes didn't have the regulars to make the trip, but for the most part, the diehard types all came. - AB

jimpastorius · **Posted:** Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:04 am

Aaron Buckley wrote:

jimpastorius wrote:

My feeling on Ft. Myers is that it is never a good barometer of the competition. Expecially this year with the Pro and Tour split.

We will have a better idea in DC and then the mid-west. Or there are some real strong STS cars on the west coast.

The West has some really strong STS cars, but so does the East. It's one of the few classes that actually have good parity on both coasts. Even the Mid-West has some tough STS cars. No surprise considering STS has constituted over 13% of every National event this year.

I don't think the Tour/Pro split limited too much of the competition. Yes, certain classes didn't have the regulars to make the trip, but for the most part, the diehard types all came. - AB

Did any one post the PAX results for Ft. Myers? I know Winchel just posted the PAX for San Bern. That was the first one he has done.

Even for the San Bern, I saw the top 10 PAX posted.

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