Triangle Asian Imports on 55 in Durham

JamesShort · **Posted:** Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:06 pm

This place used to be Honda Specialists or something back in the day. I thought I'd give it a shot since they are close to me and had an alignment special going on (just installed camber bolts and new springs).

After 3.5 hours, the guy could only get -1.7 on the driver side front and -2.5 on the passenger side (I was aiming at -2.5 on each side). They gave up and I told him to bring the -2.5 side down to -2.0, get the toe to zero. The alignment special advertised on their door was no longer valid and he said because it took so long there would be an upcharge.

I get home and sure as hell enough, one of the tabbed washers on the camber bolts was 180 degrees from where it should have been and hence it was acting either as a neutral '14mm' bolt or a positive camber bolt.

I very clearly asked them if they were experienced with a dual camber bolt adjustment procedure and explained it to them very clearly when I got there. They guy told me I had to step out of the shop for insurance reasons and I respect that, but at hour 1.5 if he would have let me peek at it for 3 seconds, I could have let him know what's wrong instantly.

Any other experience with this shop? I called the owner and let him know about the situation. Hopefully he'll have me come back and correct the issue at no charge.

JohnByers · **Posted:** Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:34 pm

That sucks James, I hate to use shops I don't know about for this exact reason. Hope they make good on their failed attempt.

Michael Westerfield · **Posted:** Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:07 pm

JamesShort wrote:

This place used to be Honda Specialists or something back in the day. I thought I'd give it a shot since they are close to me and had an alignment special going on (just installed camber bolts and new springs).

After 3.5 hours, the guy could only get -1.7 on the driver side front and -2.5 on the passenger side (I was aiming at -2.5 on each side). They gave up and I told him to bring the -2.5 side down to -2.0, get the toe to zero. The alignment special advertised on their door was no longer valid and he said because it took so long there would be an upcharge.

I get home and sure as hell enough, one of the tabbed washers on the camber bolts was 180 degrees from where it should have been and hence it was acting either as a neutral '14mm' bolt or a positive camber bolt.

I very clearly asked them if they were experienced with a dual camber bolt adjustment procedure and explained it to them very clearly when I got there. They guy told me I had to step out of the shop for insurance reasons and I respect that, but at hour 1.5 if he would have let me peek at it for 3 seconds, I could have let him know what's wrong instantly.

Any other experience with this shop? I called the owner and let him know about the situation. Hopefully he'll have me come back and correct the issue at no charge.

You are in Durham right?

Call up Brad Moyer at Digital Chassis.

/done

JamesShort · **Posted:** Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:23 pm

Thanks Mike. I'm going to let them fix it since I'm already $97 into it (though I think they should comp me for my time since it was their incompetence that caused it to take 3.5 hours....not my bent suspension on a 4300 mile car.

But I'll go to Digital Chassis in the future.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:57 pm

So he got me -2.3 on each side (-2.3 on the side that he screwed up and -2.5 on the other, so I had him set the -2.5 to -2.3 for zero cross camber).

I'm hoping he offers me a credit of some sort since they upcharged me not because the job was hard or long, but because of their own incompetence in using 2 tabbed washer style camber bolts in the strut. I specifically asked if they will experienced using them and that they have to set the tabbed washers correctly and then turn both bolts simultaneously in opposite directions....basically holding their hands.

Still hesitant if I'd suggest the place to someone else.

Steven Carter · **Posted:** Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:30 pm

hope it works out, James, but....I thought you hung up the Civic for the CSP Miata? Or is there yet another plan--it sounds vaguely STX-ish....

Matt McGrain · **Posted:** Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:40 pm

That's a bummer James. I've been reading your feedback on the 8th Civic forum and that's really frustrating for sure.

So you're going to be in a tough predicament: CSP Miata with Ram on sticky new A6's or a recently transformed Si with somewhat of a proper suspension (GS setup of tossing Koni's and OE camber bolts doesn't qualify) I see Star Specs in your future on the Civic.

I think my Si will be heading to Performance Chassis soon to get aligned (finally) before the NCAC's but I have no idea what I want to run for toe up front but I'll probably run with 1/16" out and 0" in the rears and see how it feels.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:46 pm

@Steve, yes mild STX on the Civic for setup day and/or TSCC events (plus feels better on the street):

-2.3 camber up front via bolts
220/448 #/in springs (up front 195/200)....1.6" drop
17mm ->22mm rear bar

That's it....will run DSP if I bring the race tires or STX if I have decent street tires. If I can sell my race tires, I'll buy star specs or just run DSP till the race tires are gone (which might take longer now that I have camber and spring rate

).

But other than that, will be driving with Ram in CSP.

Karl Shultz · **Posted:** Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:50 pm

James, I can tell you another alignment place in Durham to avoid. The Firestone shop on Chapel Hill, behind Super Target in the old South Square area. Some of the local S2KCA guys were speaking highly of him, so I thought I'd give him a try. This was just before the Lincoln Pro/Tour weekend back in May.

First off, it took them two days to get to me once I'd left them the car, which was a bit of a problem since I had to load it onto a trailer that Tuesday. I also couldn't be there to sit inside the car. When I got it back, the $79.00 one-time alignment was "pretty close," but certainly not the dead perfect I've come to expect from Mark at Performance Chassis. Camber on one side was 0.25 degrees off the other in the rear. The front was fine, but they didn't level off the caster side to side, and just left it at the max they could get, something like 5.8 and 5.1. Mark levels it out.

I didn't think much of it, and as you know, the Lincoln event didn't go all that well. Anyway, I parked the car in the garage for several weeks, then Kara and I were going to Asheville for July 4th, and decided to take the S2000. Well, the steering wheel was a full 15 degrees off center, no lie. This after a dozen autocross runs and some time on a trailer!

I eventually called the store manager to make an appointment to bring it in. He told me that he didn't warranty alignments on competition cars. I told him that I respected that, but asked him to consider that the car had been in competition use for over four years. It's been aligned at least a dozen times. This is the first and only time it's ever slipped out of alignment. He paused, and said he'd let me bring it in to have it readjusted "one last time."

Well, it's the last time, alright. I'm glad I didn't pay for the lifetime alignment that they offer.

Anyway, I'm now convinced of what I've been convinced of many times. If you want it perfect, take it to Mark. Even though he's half an hour or more from Durham, it's worth it. He's always gotten mine right, every time, and the results are repeatable.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:03 pm

Yeah, for most alignment places, it seems that they charge $65-100 for an alignment, and literally only do toe front and rear. For the few cars in the world with camber/caster adjustment, I'm sure they cringe but it must be a 90/10 ratio such that 90% of the time they are doing only a toe alignment in 15minutes and still getting the same amount of money as they do if one of those miata, s2000, RX8, Corvettes come in where it takes them 1.5 hours to get things just ok.

Since these guys couldn't even figure out simple eccentric camber bolts, I can't even imagine how they'd do double wishbone eccentrics that adjust camber and caster *simultaneously*....it'd blow their mind

. If I had a double wishbone car, I'd definitely only take it to PC

.

Jason Tower · **Joined:** Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:31 pm **Posts:** 1173

is there any reason people who are picky about their alignments (read: thscc'ers) don't do it themselves? i've been doing mine for a couple of years now and it's actually quite simple, some cars are harder than others depending on suspension design but it's not really that difficult. camber gauges aren't exactly cheap but you can get a good one and a set of toe plates for under $200. the only thing that's tricky is absolute rear toe (thrust angle) but with a long straightedge and a little practice even that isn't difficult.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:39 pm

I do my own. I wrote a web app that makes front and rear toe very simple with just strings (need not be parallel to the car's center line, just parallel to each other). It takes into account thrust angle too.

I took it in because my homebrewed camber gauge didn't work with that much camber because it would hit the top of the fender. Need to make a new one.

Karl Shultz · **Posted:** Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:16 am

Jason Tower wrote:

is there any reason people who are picky about their alignments (read: thscc'ers) don't do it themselves?

I've never been able to get it right, so I gave up years ago. I'd do it, take the car for a drive, and at best, it would be slightly worse than it already was. Since I always ended up taking my car to a shop to fix my mistakes anyway, I eliminated the middle step. I've never bothered again, especially with the S2000. This is a car where 1/16" of rear toe change can make a big difference in the way that it drives, so I leave that to someone who is an expert with nice equipment.

I know people claim they can do as good a job themselves, and maybe they can. I can't. :lol:

Scott Johnson · **Posted:** Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:23 am

JamesShort wrote:

I do my own. I wrote a web app that makes front and rear toe very simple with just strings (need not be parallel to the car's center line, just parallel to each other). It takes into account thrust angle too.

I'm a little slow, so I'd love to see the math to make that work out (strings not parallel to the center line). What assumptions have you made?

If I had a strut suspension and were just setting camber and toe up front, I would probably do it myself. That's easy. Some double A-arm cars have 4 alignment bolts per corner, and tie rods. All do something different. That is really non-obvious on how to actually do it. I guess if your goal is just maximum values for camber and caster, then it's easy, but that isn't always the goal.

The rear of most cars use multiple eccentrics, so the complexity at that point is already greater than my level of patience. I could spend more time getting the car set up between the strings then I spend at the alignment shop.

JamesShort · **Posted:** Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:33 am

The only assumption it makes is that the car already has approximately equal camber side to side (which you should do camber first before toe anyway).

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10906

I have since stopped hosting with that company so the images are not there. Let me try to recreate the math. I'll get the html off my desktop at home and send it to you as well.

The math works out if you know the wheelbase, the width of the locations at which you will be taking measurements from string to wheel (essentially the wheel width but some wheels have flat spots that are easier to measure at that are inboard from the very edge of the wheel) as well as the distances from the string to front and rear of each of the 4 wheels.

The math is solid. I ran a hypothetical with the camber being off by 0.3* on each side and the change in toe for that side was about a quarter millimeter.

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