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 Post subject: The state of the bus (long)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:48 pm 
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I got a SUX2000!
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OK, I know I've been out of circulation in the autocross program a while, but I'm back. I drove the bus to and back from Laurinburg this past weekend. Here's what I know.

1. The A/C

It works...sometimes. Seems as though it works fairly well when the bus is at an event, idling and standing still. However, once underway and at speed, the same settings that keep the timing and scoring folks "less hot" turn it into a heater, literally. Air coming out of the vents in the dash is hotter than ambient.

2. The transmission

This is where I learned the most this weekend. A lot of this I'm also gleaning from owning a diesel Excursion for almost three years, which AFAIK has the same transmission and is programmed at least similarly.

We know that over the course of a trip, the O/D light starts to blink. This is an indication of a fault in the transmission, usually slippage. I managed the entire trip from Laurinburg back to Cary without the thing throwing a light. Here's how.

a. If you're in a 55mph zone or lower, push the button on the end of the shift lever to turn off overdrive altogether. Deal with the noise and the reduced fuel mileage. This keeps it from hunting between gears, which is the problem.

And it's best to make sure you're unloaded (as in, coasting downhill) when you make the decision to throw it from 4th to 3rd. It works less hard this way and is less likely to slip (and throw a light).

b. If you're in a 65mph zone, keep it above 65mph, even if this requires wide open throttle. If inclines are small, full throttle will get you up them in 4th gear, as the torque converter is locked. Also, 65+mph is a speed such that the computer won't *allow* a downshift - not enough RPMs available on the motor.

c. If you're in the above mentioned 65mph zone and facing a hill where the thing starts to decelerate, here's what you do. You let it decelerate, and as you do so, you ease off the throttle. The decision to shift from 4 to 3 is based on load on the vehicle. If you've got the thing matted and you're still decelerating, once you decelerate to the point that 3rd gear is available, it will unlock the torque converter (this is where the slippage is occurring IMO) and downshift to 3rd. By backing off the throttle as you climb this hill, you can "nurse" 4th gear up the hill to the crest, keeping the torque converter locked, and once you crest it, hammer back down...gently.

d. The light comes on when you don't do what I'm describing above, like setting the cruise at 65 and just letting the trans do the work. Not always, but usually, the minute the trans decides it needs to go from 4 to 3 going up a hill, and (it has to do this) unlocks the torque converter, that's when it slips and throws a light. I'm convinced.

I'm reading back through this and I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense. Mike and I discussed it at length last night. It's hard to articulate the transmission stuff without driving it.

Anyway, there's a couple things I think we should do to it.

1. Open up the exhaust. It'll make more power this way for sure. I was stunned to look at the little pea shooter coming out the back of that thing.

2. Fix the A/C. The timing guys are pretty much fine. The poor bastard who has to drive it to Laurinburg in June, not so much.

3. Upgrade the headlights somehow. I didn't look, but if they're the type that take replacement bulbs (as opposed to replacing the whole thing), some Silverstars would make a welcome difference.

4. Get rid of the mirror that shows you what's 12 inches in front of the vehicle. Wholly unnecessary, and distracting when you're driving it at night. You get a great view of...the headlight.

5. If we eventually decide to put a new trans in it, we should supplant that with a shift kit of some sort. It'll make the drive experience a little harsh, but will minimize slippage. I think it increases line pressure.

That's it...discuss :D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:31 pm 
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The cruise works? I couldn't get it to do anything on the way to Sanford in May ??? I also never noticed the OD light, but I rarely drive below 65 mph :)

Everything else sounds fine to me.

Can we get a Flowmaster for it?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:42 pm 
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scottjohnson wrote:
The cruise works? I couldn't get it to do anything on the way to Sanford in May ??? I also never noticed the OD light, but I rarely drive below 65 mph :)


The cruise control didn't work for me on the way to Danville for the Evo School back in April. But it did work on the way home. Weird.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:55 pm 
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Stephen Westerfield wrote:
scottjohnson wrote:
The cruise works? I couldn't get it to do anything on the way to Sanford in May ??? I also never noticed the OD light, but I rarely drive below 65 mph :)


The cruise control didn't work for me on the way to Danville for the Evo School back in April. But it did work on the way home. Weird.


Apparently cruise control is disabled if the trans light is flashing.

I'm still trying to get a "feel" for whether the trans is actually getting worse or not, and if it is getting worse, how quickly. Hard to say with so many different people driving it and so infrequently.

I'm undecided on which things to pursue.

PS - I DO believe we should be planning on the bus replacement in 2009 though. Plan to get something with a turbodiesel, fewer miles, and longer wheelbase. It would be an excellent application of that $10k CD we have.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:10 pm 
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MikeWhitney wrote:
PS - I DO believe we should be planning on the bus replacement in 2009 though. Plan to get something with a turbodiesel, fewer miles, and longer wheelbase. It would be an excellent application of that $10k CD we have.


What do you think the residual value of the current bus is, and how much have our modifications hurt that value (or helped?). Cost aside, I think that we should expect to get way more than 4-5 years out of our bus purchases. If that is impossible with cash on hand then we should consider a loan.

Setting up the bus to fit our specific needs was no small task, and we should strive to avoid doing that on anything that resembles a regular basis.

Scott


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:17 pm 
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scottjohnson wrote:
MikeWhitney wrote:
PS - I DO believe we should be planning on the bus replacement in 2009 though. Plan to get something with a turbodiesel, fewer miles, and longer wheelbase. It would be an excellent application of that $10k CD we have.


What do you think the residual value of the current bus is, and how much have our modifications hurt that value (or helped?). Cost aside, I think that we should expect to get way more than 4-5 years out of our bus purchases. If that is impossible with cash on hand then we should consider a loan.

Setting up the bus to fit our specific needs was no small task, and we should strive to avoid doing that on anything that resembles a regular basis.

Scott


Agreed on all points. The current bus was a "proof of concept" in many ways, and it needed to be a cheap one to not bankrupt the club at the time. Hindsight is 20/20 too, but there are a few things about it which we thought would be fine at the time of purchase which really aren't. It doesn't have enough power and the wheelbase is too short. Lessons learned.

On the bright side, the trailer is done and I think we can expect 20 years of service out of it. I always expected the current bus to be a 5 year vehicle for the club.

Bus 3.0 should easily be a 10 year vehicle if we get a good one. I'm interested in replacing Bus 2.0 before it becomes unsellable. It was $3400 in 2004, and with the maintenance and improvements it should go for at least that much. (PS - I plan/expect to fully remove ALL of our electrical equipment, tables, cabinet, hitch, etc and move to the next one) It's also possible that the tranny problems will disappear when we remove the trailer.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:27 pm 
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I got a SUX2000!
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scottjohnson wrote:
The cruise works? I couldn't get it to do anything on the way to Sanford in May ??? I also never noticed the OD light, but I rarely drive below 65 mph :)

Everything else sounds fine to me.


Cruise goes away if the trans light is on OR if the trans has thrown a light, and it's then gotten turned back off, but you haven't restarted the truck. Think "hitting the reset button." Found this behavior yesterday as well.

OD light can sneak up on you because if you've got your hands at 9 and 3 (and why wouldn't you when driving that great big thing), at least my right hand completely obscures the light. Every several minutes coming home, I'd take my right hand off the steering wheel just to make sure.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:35 pm 
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I have no good answers here except for what Mike and I briefly talked about in L'burg.

-We do not want a snafu on our hand of the bus crapping out and the logistics of putting on the event, then getting everything home. That is our worst nightmare.

-The 10k CD is there and I would tend to err on the side of selling the current bus before it has ZERO value.

I am at a loss to say what to do at this point but now is the time to plan for the future.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:41 pm 
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Whatever you do, the new bus better have an awning and a built in generator. Anything less and it's crotchpunch time! :twisted:


--Donnie


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:19 pm 
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Donnie Barnes wrote:
Whatever you do, the new bus better have an awning and a built in generator. Anything less and it's crotchpunch time! :twisted:


--Donnie


A motorhome might fit the bill!
    Longer wheelbase
    More power
    awning
    generator
    multiple A/Cs
    Built in beer cooler 8)
    And there would be no more Hotel charges for the driver! :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:08 am 
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Back on topic and before this thread spirals out of control.

We have three options:

1. Do nothing and wait for positive confirmation that the problem is getting worse -- worst case is that the bus gets stranded on the way to or from an event. This does NOT mean that we don't have an event. The trailer can be pulled by any truck, and this would happen on setup day. Good? No, but the show will go on. Best case is that the problem gets no worse and the bus can be sold in about 2 years for $3k

2. Proactively replace the tranny. Cost is about $3-4k for a rebuilt installed. We can afford it but it would push out the new bus schedule probably until 2010 or so. Would help resale.

3. Accelerate the schedule for a new bus. This is a lot of work.

Indecision results in #1. Personally, I'm a fan of that -- continue to gather data by talking to people who drive it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:30 am 
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if the light is blinkin then there should be a code. A transmission shop should be able to hook a scanner machine to it to see what the code is. It is posible it is a simple fix, like a shift solenoid or something like that.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:58 am 
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MikeWhitney wrote:
2. Proactively replace the tranny. Cost is about $3-4k for a rebuilt installed.


Wow, so what you're saying is that if we had mythical "transmission repair insurance" that they'd just total the whole thing?

It would seem pretty silly to double the investment in the bus with nothing more than a transmission repair. Yes, I'm ignoring the investment of time and materials for all the club-specific bits since we're talking about removing and reinstalling all that. Sure, the time part is significant, but it's also "free" to the club.

All that said, my fear is that anything the club can "afford", even with the help of a loan, is going to require pretty continual maintenance. The real "choice" is whether to go "over the edge" with the first *big* investment into this particular bus or to start with something potentially "better" (bigger, nicer, newer, whatever the criteria is for bus improvement).


--Donnie


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:26 am 
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jeremy gast wrote:
if the light is blinkin then there should be a code. A transmission shop should be able to hook a scanner machine to it to see what the code is. It is posible it is a simple fix, like a shift solenoid or something like that.


Triangle Truck did scan it and no code was stored. He said that the problem must be minor to not store a code. I agree, that's weird, but those guys are pretty good so I have to believe them.

These problems were all caused by a pretty significant trans fluid leak and the fact that we drove it so low on fluid, burning up some clutch packs. Oops.

So at least it's not a logevity/durability thing. It was an accident.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:29 am 
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Donnie Barnes wrote:
MikeWhitney wrote:
2. Proactively replace the tranny. Cost is about $3-4k for a rebuilt installed.


Wow, so what you're saying is that if we had mythical "transmission repair insurance" that they'd just total the whole thing?


Think of things in terms of cost of service, not purchase cost. Replacement value means almost nothing since it's a used vehicle.

Donnie Barnes wrote:
It would seem pretty silly to double the investment in the bus with nothing more than a transmission repair. Yes, I'm ignoring the investment of time and materials for all the club-specific bits since we're talking about removing and reinstalling all that. Sure, the time part is significant, but it's also "free" to the club.


I don't think it's silly to drop $3k to get 3 more years out of the current bus. What we spent in the past doesn't much matter.

And as I mentioned in the previous post, we ran the bus out of trans fluid. My bad for not making sure it gets checked often -- a mistake I will not repeat.

So it was a $3k accident, not "continual maintenance". In fact this bus has been CHEAP to own and use compared with the schoolbus. Oh My God was that thing a money pit. I think we were putting $2-3k per year into it. It wasn't designed for constant high-throttle use.

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