THSCC Forums

Well obviously we wouldn't have "full control" of what gets written. But, especially when I explained my reasons, I've gotten good results in the past by simply asking nicely. YMMV.

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Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531

This is not a local or current news reporter, but the person in charge of the weekly "Road Worrier" collumn, where he writes about anything driving related.

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SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.

I think it would be a good idea for THSCC to establish some sort of relationship to one of the "real" driving schools, whether it is the BMW one or Extreme whatever. Then we have a place to recommend when someone comes to us specifically with the goal to "teach their kids to drive better".

We should be clear to anyone "outside the circle" that autocross is fundamentally a sport, with risks and competition, which happens to have some side benefit in car control skills.

Car control skill improvement is NOT the objective. Having fun and crushing your competition is

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Mike Whitney
whit32@gmail.com, 919-454-5445
V10, V8, V8t, I6, I6, V6, F4t, I4, I4, I4, I4, I2, 1, 1

I agree with Mike. About the only thing we can hope to accomplish with young drivers is to convince them there's a place they can go to let the dogs run.

Besides, I'd like to preserve our "bad-ass" rep. Let 'em keep thinkin' we're the folks our parents warned us about.
"Oooh noooo, John-Boy. You doan wanna git mixed up with them folks."

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Brad

I really didn't want to post to this thread. Especially as what I want to say may require me to wear a flame proof suit. But...

I think (hope) that the "bad-ass" rep comment is tongue in cheek. But IMHO I think that a perceived lack of respectability is one thing our hobby has loads of and that is not good. Probably many people who if given a quick description of what we do (drive fast in a parking lot, field, etc.) would tend to mentally slot us in with a less than desirable group of people. I hope we don't need that type of bogus ego boost to make ourselves feel like rebels or something.

For example, while I personally don’t have a very positive image of “drifting” as a sport, in all probability I am sure you can find some nice people at those events. Today’s responsible parent who doesn’t want their kids to associate with us may be the very same person who is a site manager at that location we would love to autocross at.

Regarding flying low, I think that if we don’t have a plan approved by the officers that flying low is what we should do. But at the same time, I think that ignoring the media and passing up the potential for good press is just putting out head in the sand and hoping for the best. If they want to write a bad story about the club, they can do that 100% without our help or involvement. But this doesn’t mean jumping at the first opportunity to get our name in print either.

What are my two cents on what to do? The club should find a member who is media savvy (I am not) and formulate a policy on how to handle stuff like this. Doesn’t have to be complex, but at least we have an idea on what to do vs. trying to figure out what is best each time it might come up. Then if we have an opportunity like this, then work with the reporter to see if we can do something that works for both of us. I also don’t think we should try to ride the coattails of the recent teenage deaths (I also don’t think that is what Chuck was doing by the way). Part of this is that while I believe it is a tough row to hoe, teenagers CAN benefit from car control training. But we are just not the people to do it. Or at the least, we are not setup to do it right now. If asked, point them to other established schools that do this.

I think that some good events to bring a reporter along to would be something like the tie in with the Jimmy V foundation, the EV Challenge or even the NCAC Championship (which I think would actually be a great story). Those are events that could be viewed as interesting to casual readers of the paper without it having to be tied to some type of sensational topic of the moment.

I also don’t want current or past officers to think I am saying they have dropped the ball on this. I think this is just something that happens when the club becomes large enough and successful enough that they might have to start thinking about how they are perceived by the general public and media relations might be part of this.

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Richard Casto
1972 Porsche 914
2013 Honda Fit Sport
2015 Honda Fit EX
http://motorsport.zyyz.com
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.

Chuck, I'm kind of interested in how the N&O found out about your thoughts on the story. Were you contacted by some clerk via dart in the phone book or did you call them to express an interest in educating the community?

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Has no responsibility whatsoever.

Chuck,
I think you did a great thing. I also think that the reporter probably twisted/misinterpreted your words. He did make it sound more like a driving school. I agree with Mike, and I feel like you do too, that this is a competitive sport in which you also learn important driving skills. Anyway, that is my opinion on the subject, not that anyone cares.

Charlie

I'm only saying that if you're leading the drivers meeting and you notice a bunch of 16 and 17 year olds out there, you need to do everything in your power to encourage them to use their newfound skills responsibly. Also, you want to make sure that everybody in attendance hears it so that they can back us up if we were ever accused of encouraging reckless driving by minors.

Now if something did happen, and we were accused of contributing to the problem, having our paperwork in proper order should help. (I'm talking about insurance waivers AND minor release forms, both signed by the parents and of course properly labeled, dated and signed by a senior officer.)

Regarding the other topic ... That's a message for parents, grandparents, religious leaders and medical professionals to drum into teenagers brains. As often as it takes.

Art brings up a good point.

With more and more minors attending the events, we need to have the minor waivers at the gate with the regular insurance waiver. Also the gate worker needs to be knowledgable in how the MW should be filled out.

Speaking from experience, it is way too easy to forget to go by the bus and dig for the MWs. I'm sure there were many events last year where the MWs were not done.

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Todd Breakey
STS 42 - 1992 Sunburst Miata
Dammit!
"You souldn't play leap frog with a porcupine. You might get hurt." - Eliza

I have to disagree. I wonder if any of you autocrossed as a teenager? My first autocross was when I was 17. I can tell you that it made a big difference. Did it make me drive slower? No. Did it make me drive faster? Definitely not. Did it help to make me the only one of my friends to NOT wreck a car? Yes. As for the statistics you posted, I would say that autocross helps with three of them at least.

#1. Poor hazard detection. Think about that statement. What is walking the course for? It helps you to pick out areas and see how things are in advance. Now when you first start autocrossing, walking the course means NOTHING unless someone is there explaining it to you. As you gain experience, you begin to recognize different things and how you would need to react to them. That goes into real life as well. You become more perceptive to what's around. Beyond that, it helps you to learn to look ahead. How many times have you seen someone swerve to avoid an accident and end up slamming into someone else that they didn't know was there? Situational awareness is something that can provide great benefits in daily driving.

#2. Risk taking. ALL teenagers are going to take risks. It's just a part of adolescence. Now you tell me what's better, taking risks when you don't know what a car can & will do or when you've actually pushed that car to its limits in a safe environment? Get the crap scared out of you when you spin on course and that's going to stick with you and keep you a little bit more reigned in. Car starts sliding and you know what to do because you're used to it. So instead of causing a total loss of control and damage, injury, or death, you get a rapid heart beat and maybe have to change your shorts.

#3. Low risk perception. That simply goes with the above two. You know what happens in situations. "If I do A, B will happen". So, instead of taking that curve at 115, they know that the rear end starts coming out around 60 on the sweeper at Laurenburg so there's no way that they can do it now. Risk taking is all about seeing if you can do it. If you already know you can, it's not as fun or rewarding. If you already know you can't, you typically stay away from it.

#4. Lack of skill. This one is obvious. To excel in autocross, you must have driving skill. We all know that the more you do it, the better your skill becomes. Driving is driving. No matter what, there's something that you can take with you in other driving situations.

#5. Not wearing seat belts. The human mind likes habit. You autocross, you are wearing a seatbelt or harness. So, when you are driving aggressively, you're wearing a seatbelt. I've known more than one person who didn't wear their seatbelt until they started autocrossing. They got used to putting it on when they got in the car at an event. Then they buckled it without thinking about it when leaving. Granted, it's not a definite but it still helps to set an example for the mind.

Personally, when I have children, they will be autocrossing when they turn 16. I don't care if its something they want to pursue later down the road or not (although I hope they do). They WILL learn skills there and it is my experience that those skills will help them later on in life when they're behind the wheel.

I'd like to quote from the first page of the SCCA 2006 Solo rulebook:
"A Solo Event is a non-speed driving skill contest such as, but not limited to, autocrosses and slaloms. These events are run on short courses that emphasize the driver's ability and the car's handling and agility. Competition licenses are not required, and hazzards to spectators, participants and property do not exceed those encountered in normal, legal highway driving." (emphasis mine)

To me that says to excel in this sport you must learn, practice, and demonstrate outstanding ability to handle a car at legal driving speeds,
The rules also allow participation by drivers of full size cars as long as they hold a valid driver's license, which in NC is 16.
SCCA even has a Junior Driver's Program that allows drivers ages 5-15 to AX in karts based on it's expectation of developing their driving skills to become better drivers NOT racers, by the time they reach highway driving age.
Bottom line is that you can call AX racing if it suits your ego, but it's really driving skills development and demonstration i.e. drivers ed. How many times have you said/heard "AX is 90% driving skill and 10% car preparation"?

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SPIN or WIN!
there's no glory for going slow.

If it isn't a race, then I am sure no one will mind if the timer is left at home this weekend. Afterall, if it is not a race but a demonstration of driving skill, then it really doesn't matter if you make it through an element .005 faster than the next guy. No one is going to care how fast you avoid an accident, after all, just that you do.

You can play semantics all you want, but if at the end of the day there is a list of results detailing who went faster than who, then it is a race.

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Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/

Well it's clearly a competition, and any competition is going to yield a list of results detailing whose performances were better than others.

It definitely is a semantic issue as to whether it's a "race" or not, there are arguments to be made each way, and some people feel strongly about the "correctness" of their interpretation. I don't think it's an "ego thing" for most autoXers who call it "racing", just a useful and practical generalization. At the same time, the term implies certain things (particularly to the general public) that autocross is definitely not, so I do think it's worth making the distinction.

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Carl Fisher

Be Cool to the Pizza Dude:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4651531

Race - n.

1. Sports.
1. A competition of speed, as in running or riding.
2. races A series of such competitions held at a specified time on a regular course

It is a competition of speed. The winner is the driver who covers the course in the least amount of time. The term race is actually correct for the activity and it is not, as Chuck disparaged, an expression of ego.

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Rich
http://www.v8mongrel.com/

Great link, Carl.
Took two of your posts to get my attention. Wish I could be so eloquent.

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Brad